Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Discipleship

[Grandfather]

I asked this question of Ed in my previous post, but I would like everyone's input as well.

If I was a new believer and I committed to be "discipled" by you what are the principle points/doctrines/ teachings/practices etc that you would want to ensure I had in place that would a strong foundation that would enable me to walk as a believer? We are going to meet twice a month for 12 months. Each meeting is going to last about 90 minutes.

Here are some things to consider:
What are the principles you want to see me equipped with?
How are you going to determine they become a practice and not simply knowledge?
Are you going to learn of my personal life and adapt your teaching accordingly? Why or why not?
How available are you going to be to me in case I "get stuck" and need your help?
How much additional time during the two weeks are you going to require I put into this?
Are you going to require I attend your church while I undergo this discipleship process?

For the purpose of discussion, let's say I met you through a mutual friend. i've been attending church, because I believe it helps me be a better person. I thought I was a Christian, I lived my life with the "Christian philosophy" as my guiding principle and my wife shares my beliefs. I'm married and a blue collar worker. My wife works part time, we have 2 children 6 & 9. They like the church we currently attend and involved in some of the many church activities.

The church we attend is a "typical" non-denominational church. The pastor is ordained through a major denomination, but that denominational name is not found promoted anywhere within the church. (let's say it is AOG) The church size is about 375-425 and by all indications appears to be healthy spiritual. They are growing in number, they have "alter calls" (but for some reason I thought I was already "saved" so I did not see the need to ever respond) When I ask someone if we were "charismatic" they said: "Yes, we have a band, play upbeat music and raise our hands"

Okay, that's enough for now.... SO TAKE ME ON THE JOURNEY OF DISCIPLESHIP THAT YOU HAVE PLANNED.

I just don't see why you would have to stay on someone to make sure that they live right, people are going to do inevitably what they want to do, and all of the Discipleship classes and accountability partners are not going to change that. If person does not want to follow Christ they can't be made to. Do we need teaching? Yes. Do we need to learn theology? Yes. Do we need indoctrination? No. People need to be taught how to walk in love and be like Christ in this world. Some of this is over my head and I am not understanding all of what you are trying to say. But to me and I could be wrong you seem to be wanting to force people into living right who really don't want to. When Jesus said make disciples he did not mean to make it this complicated, a disciple simply means a follower of Christ, so go and make Christ followers. If someone really wants to follow him then they and they will pursue him with all of their being if they don't then they won't.. Maybe I am over simplifying things, but no one had to tell me to seek him or to learn of him. Because of the change brought about by the new birth I just wanted to and continually want to..

Rocky,
If I may start and the end of your statement where you said: “..no one had to tell me to seek him or to learn of him….” So you are claiming to be a self-made or self-taught disciple? While I believe that is entirely possible, to suggest it for everyone is suggesting that the command to “go and make disciples” is wrong. I don’t want to believe that is your true perspective on this.

You make the suggestion that if people don’t want to do something they won’t. I fully agree, but I will carry that idea a little further. DISCIPLINE is the root of discipleship, unfortunately most people need help maintaining disciple, especially when being introduced to a new lifestyle. You’re correct class and accountability won’t change those that don’t want to change, but they are great resources for people that want change and need some help and direction in making those changes.

And I think you’re right again when you say it should not be a complicated process, but simple does not mean easy. The writer of Hebrews lists 6 basic doctrines in Hebrews 6. He calls thems the elementary foundations. I submit that most Christians can’t even give the name of these six without looking at the chapter. I further submit that they can’t give a basic statement of what each doctrine is without some time and research. And these are what are called ELEMENTARY doctrines which means there are other more advanced that we should be aware of as well.

Now, if you are suggesting that the methodology doesn’t have to be complicated, I wholeheartedly agree, in fact I am of the persuasion that too often we have complicated the methodology to make the process look unique and exclusive to a certain person, sect, etc.

I have more to say, but I’ve found that in this medium if it gets much longer people won’t read any of it. So until then

[Grandfather]

So, let me ask you---- if I were a new believer and I was going to meet with you twice a month for the next year in order to be "discipled", can you give me a handful of the points you would want to be sure I understood and practice?

I would do everything I could to teach what salvation really is and how it is obtained. Sounds easy but how many connect the dots of their salvation with the Passover, with Blood Covenant, with feasts, with Tabernacle worship, with Abraham offering Isaac. Most know it was Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that provides their salvation but they have no idea why. Many think it was his pain, his torture, his humiliation and while in fact Jesus did experience all of this the basis of our salvation is not rooted in any of that. For me to make a disciple I would spend a lot of time on the Blood Covenant.

I likewise would spend time on the meaning of original language words that have been convoluted or had the fullness of their real meaning lost in their translation to English. Words like believe, blessing, lord, serving and servant-hood.

I would disciple on character traits God cited in one way or another as being important or precious in His sight.

Interesting approach. Have you used that method on many people?

For me discipleship takes on an approach similar to rehabbing after an injury. It's really a multifaceted approach, but generally involves two aspects. The first is an overall fitness, flexibility and strength. The second is a focus on regaining range of motion, flexibility and strength in the injured area and involves a great deal of observation and understanding of how all the body systems work together. For example, if a person hurts their foot, they can compensate by changing their stride and how the stand. This then impacts the natural motion of the hips and lower back, the spine and the upper back then make adjustments to what is going on in the hips and lower back and eventually (in some cases) a very stiff neck results. It is possible to relief the pain of the stiff neck, at least temporarily, but if the "whole system" is not put back into proper working order, the pain will return. So, while the "stiff neck" appears to be the problem because of the pain it causes, the really issue is a problem with the foot and the stride, which the person may not even be aware of.

Which is why I said I do not believe there is no one methodology that works for everyone, but I do believe there are basic tenants that everyone needs to learn.

[Justaned]

I asked this question of Ed in my previous post, but I would like everyone's input as well.

If I was a new believer and I committed to be "discipled" by you what are the principle points/doctrines/ teachings/practices etc that you would want to ensure I had in place that would a strong foundation that would enable me to walk as a believer? We are going to meet twice a month for 12 months. Each meeting is going to last about 90 minutes.

Here are some things to consider:
What are the principles you want to see me equipped with?
How are you going to determine they become a practice and not simply knowledge?
Are you going to learn of my personal life and adapt your teaching accordingly? Why or why not?
How available are you going to be to me in case I "get stuck" and need your help?
How much additional time during the two weeks are you going to require I put into this?
Are you going to require I attend your church while I undergo this discipleship process?

For the purpose of discussion, let's say I met you through a mutual friend. i've been attending church, because I believe it helps me be a better person. I thought I was a Christian, I lived my life with the "Christian philosophy" as my guiding principle and my wife shares my beliefs. I'm married and a blue collar worker. My wife works part time, we have 2 children 6 & 9. They like the church we currently attend and involved in some of the many church activities.

The church we attend is a "typical" non-denominational church. The pastor is ordained through a major denomination, but that denominational name is not found promoted anywhere within the church. (let's say it is AOG) The church size is about 375-425 and by all indications appears to be healthy spiritual. They are growing in number, they have "alter calls" (but for some reason I thought I was already "saved" so I did not see the need to ever respond) When I ask someone if we were "charismatic" they said: "Yes, we have a band, play upbeat music and raise our hands"

Okay, that's enough for now.... SO TAKE ME ON THE JOURNEY OF DISCIPLESHIP THAT YOU HAVE PLANNED.

I just don't see why you would have to stay on someone to make sure that they live right, people are going to do inevitably what they want to do, and all of the Discipleship classes and accountability partners are not going to change that. If person does not want to follow Christ they can't be made to. Do we need teaching? Yes. Do we need to learn theology? Yes. Do we need indoctrination? No. People need to be taught how to walk in love and be like Christ in this world. Some of this is over my head and I am not understanding all of what you are trying to say. But to me and I could be wrong you seem to be wanting to force people into living right who really don't want to. When Jesus said make disciples he did not mean to make it this complicated, a disciple simply means a follower of Christ, so go and make Christ followers. If someone really wants to follow him then they and they will pursue him with all of their being if they don't then they won't.. Maybe I am over simplifying things, but no one had to tell me to seek him or to learn of him. Because of the change brought about by the new birth I just wanted to and continually want to..

Rocky,
If I may start and the end of your statement where you said: “..no one had to tell me to seek him or to learn of him….” So you are claiming to be a self-made or self-taught disciple? While I believe that is entirely possible, to suggest it for everyone is suggesting that the command to “go and make disciples” is wrong. I don’t want to believe that is your true perspective on this.

You make the suggestion that if people don’t want to do something they won’t. I fully agree, but I will carry that idea a little further. DISCIPLINE is the root of discipleship, unfortunately most people need help maintaining disciple, especially when being introduced to a new lifestyle. You’re correct class and accountability won’t change those that don’t want to change, but they are great resources for people that want change and need some help and direction in making those changes.

And I think you’re right again when you say it should not be a complicated process, but simple does not mean easy. The writer of Hebrews lists 6 basic doctrines in Hebrews 6. He calls thems the elementary foundations. I submit that most Christians can’t even give the name of these six without looking at the chapter. I further submit that they can’t give a basic statement of what each doctrine is without some time and research. And these are what are called ELEMENTARY doctrines which means there are other more advanced that we should be aware of as well.

Now, if you are suggesting that the methodology doesn’t have to be complicated, I wholeheartedly agree, in fact I am of the persuasion that too often we have complicated the methodology to make the process look unique and exclusive to a certain person, sect, etc.

I have more to say, but I’ve found that in this medium if it gets much longer people won’t read any of it. So until then

Grandfather
This is an excellent response to the question and I wish I had my thinking geared to making such a response. Excellent!

[Justaned]

So, let me ask you---- if I were a new believer and I was going to meet with you twice a month for the next year in order to be "discipled", can you give me a handful of the points you would want to be sure I understood and practice?

I would do everything I could to teach what salvation really is and how it is obtained. Sounds easy but how many connect the dots of their salvation with the Passover, with Blood Covenant, with feasts, with Tabernacle worship, with Abraham offering Isaac. Most know it was Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that provides their salvation but they have no idea why. Many think it was his pain, his torture, his humiliation and while in fact Jesus did experience all of this the basis of our salvation is not rooted in any of that. For me to make a disciple I would spend a lot of time on the Blood Covenant.

I likewise would spend time on the meaning of original language words that have been convoluted or had the fullness of their real meaning lost in their translation to English. Words like believe, blessing, lord, serving and servant-hood.

I would disciple on character traits God cited in one way or another as being important or precious in His sight.

Interesting approach. Have you used that method on many people?

For me discipleship takes on an approach similar to rehabbing after an injury. It's really a multifaceted approach, but generally involves two aspects. The first is an overall fitness, flexibility and strength. The second is a focus on regaining range of motion, flexibility and strength in the injured area and involves a great deal of observation and understanding of how all the body systems work together. For example, if a person hurts their foot, they can compensate by changing their stride and how the stand. This then impacts the natural motion of the hips and lower back, the spine and the upper back then make adjustments to what is going on in the hips and lower back and eventually (in some cases) a very stiff neck results. It is possible to relief the pain of the stiff neck, at least temporarily, but if the "whole system" is not put back into proper working order, the pain will return. So, while the "stiff neck" appears to be the problem because of the pain it causes, the really issue is a problem with the foot and the stride, which the person may not even be aware of.

Which is why I said I do not believe there is no one methodology that works for everyone, but I do believe there are basic tenants that everyone needs to learn.

I do agree with your analogy and that is why I start at the basics. Most people do not fully understand or even realize the importance God puts into covenants and covenant making, as easily seen by the societies handling of the marriage covenant. To God a covenant is life and death. Most have never heard of a blood covenant and if they have they have not idea in the world what it truly means.

Taking this back to our salvation most people think their salvation is based on the how horrible a death and how much agony Jesus was made to bear as a basis or sustainability of the covenant. I believe this is one reason people tend to gravitate toward works for their salvation and have a hard time accepting grace. However once the grace concept get established they seem to go to the other extreme and discount obedience, servanthood and (hoping this doesn't derail the discussion) even the Lord ship of Jesus Christ.

Once that initial symptom is treated I try to bring in the 6 basic doctrines found in Hebrews 6 you mentioned and expand that to the other essential doctrines of the AG which are pretty constant with foundational doctrines of most denomination and independent churches.

I want people to fully understand and full grasp on what their salvation is based. Most know it requires their belief in Jesus Christ. But have no idea what all that means or how Jesus obtained their salvation except the he died. They then tend to want to put other conditions on the payment for their sin and frankly some are absolutely outlandish if you ever have a chance to explore them.

[Grandfather]

So, let me ask you---- if I were a new believer and I was going to meet with you twice a month for the next year in order to be "discipled", can you give me a handful of the points you would want to be sure I understood and practice?

I would do everything I could to teach what salvation really is and how it is obtained. Sounds easy but how many connect the dots of their salvation with the Passover, with Blood Covenant, with feasts, with Tabernacle worship, with Abraham offering Isaac. Most know it was Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that provides their salvation but they have no idea why. Many think it was his pain, his torture, his humiliation and while in fact Jesus did experience all of this the basis of our salvation is not rooted in any of that. For me to make a disciple I would spend a lot of time on the Blood Covenant.

I likewise would spend time on the meaning of original language words that have been convoluted or had the fullness of their real meaning lost in their translation to English. Words like believe, blessing, lord, serving and servant-hood.

I would disciple on character traits God cited in one way or another as being important or precious in His sight.

Interesting approach. Have you used that method on many people?

For me discipleship takes on an approach similar to rehabbing after an injury. It's really a multifaceted approach, but generally involves two aspects. The first is an overall fitness, flexibility and strength. The second is a focus on regaining range of motion, flexibility and strength in the injured area and involves a great deal of observation and understanding of how all the body systems work together. For example, if a person hurts their foot, they can compensate by changing their stride and how the stand. This then impacts the natural motion of the hips and lower back, the spine and the upper back then make adjustments to what is going on in the hips and lower back and eventually (in some cases) a very stiff neck results. It is possible to relief the pain of the stiff neck, at least temporarily, but if the "whole system" is not put back into proper working order, the pain will return. So, while the "stiff neck" appears to be the problem because of the pain it causes, the really issue is a problem with the foot and the stride, which the person may not even be aware of.

Which is why I said I do not believe there is no one methodology that works for everyone, but I do believe there are basic tenants that everyone needs to learn.

I do agree with your analogy and that is why I start at the basics. Most people do not fully understand or even realize the importance God puts into covenants and covenant making, as easily seen by the societies handling of the marriage covenant. To God a covenant is life and death. Most have never heard of a blood covenant and if they have they have not idea in the world what it truly means.

Taking this back to our salvation most people think their salvation is based on the how horrible a death and how much agony Jesus was made to bear as a basis or sustainability of the covenant. I believe this is one reason people tend to gravitate toward works for their salvation and have a hard time accepting grace. However once the grace concept get established they seem to go to the other extreme and discount obedience, servanthood and (hoping this doesn't derail the discussion) even the Lord ship of Jesus Christ.

Once that initial symptom is treated I try to bring in the 6 basic doctrines found in Hebrews 6 you mentioned and expand that to the other essential doctrines of the AG which are pretty constant with foundational doctrines of most denomination and independent churches.

I want people to fully understand and full grasp on what their salvation is based. Most know it requires their belief in Jesus Christ. But have no idea what all that means or how Jesus obtained their salvation except the he died. They then tend to want to put other conditions on the payment for their sin and frankly some are absolutely outlandish if you ever have a chance to explore them.

Ed,

Thank you for your response.

[Justaned]

Grandfather
Found an interesting verse that I think adds to this discussion. I sensed you were a little taken back when I said young Christians need to be taught to be prayed that they will be discipled.

1 Peter 2:2-3 (NLT)
2 Like newborn babies, you must crave pure spiritual milk so that you will grow into a full experience of salvation. Cry out for this nourishment,
3 now that you have had a taste of the Lord’s kindness.


And I love this verse
1 Peter 1:14-16 (MSG)
14 Don't lazily slip back into those old grooves of evil, doing just what you feel like doing. You didn't know any better then; you do now.
15 As obedient children, let yourselves be pulled into a way of life shaped by God's life, a life energetic and blazing with holiness.
16 God said, "I am holy; you be holy."

and finally
1 Peter 1:17 (NLT)
17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as “foreigners in the land.” emphasis mine.