Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Discipleship

[Grandfather]

One of the many things that we are commanded to do as believers is to "go and make disciples", yet it has been my observation that we (at least American Christians) are more into making converts and increasing the number in attendance on Sunday, than making disciples.

I have already come to expect, from my first few posting on this forum, that half of you will agree. The other have will strongly disagree. So, for those that agree please share with me the problems that you see in making disciples in our culture. What are the obstacles you must overcome? What cooperation, if any, do you see among the body of Christ. I once heard someone say there are no problems, only potential in the thing we face. So what do you suggest we, the church, do to engage culture in a way to build disciples.

For those of you that are have success building disciples and think my observations are incorrect, tell me what you are doing that makes it successful. How are you engaging this tech savvy generation? Do you use social media, or stick to the "old fashion" methods. Are those you are reach a cross section of society or do they "look like you" What methodology do you use that the rest of us can borrow from?

[Justaned]

Wow! This is no small topic of casual discussion, you are asking the high hard ones and jumping in with both feet.

I wonder if a definition of a disciple, of disciple making would be good place to start? I'm guessing when each of us sees that word disciple various things come to mind and I'm also guessing very few of us have the same things in mind when we see that word.

Grandfather as far as using new technology have you heard of or looked into "FaithLife"? It is a project started by Logos Bible Software to produce a Christian based community based loosely on Facebook but instead of being focused on social interaction be more of a tool for Bible study. Exactly how this works is hard to explain and information is limited unless you register into Faithlife. https://faithlife.com/

The basic logos software and the Faithlife Bible needed in this can be gotten free on the internet. The Faithlife Bible is work in progress. It is based on the Lexham English Bible. The idea is to incorporate everything needed for Bible Study into one book so that everyone is on the same page so to speak.

As I understand it Faithlife communities can be set up to include say a Sunday School class, a church, a group of churches of the same denomination, a group of like thinking people, a community, or the world. I think it is possible to have church wide study which everyone in the group can see and then have smaller groups which exchange info just between them but can share with the church.

The potential is there for say a Pastor of church to have a study of Job and give his observations and thoughts. Then have smaller groups further explore these points privately and then have them come back and share with the church on their findings and thoughts. I think the big thing is everyone involved can be as private or public as they want to be with their questions, concerns, and thoughts.

I have mixed emotions on this whole thing and truthfully the only thing I really know about the project is how little I do know. However I read somewhere what this project hoped to accomplish and it was all about disciple ship and disciple making.

Something you may or may not want to look into.

[Grandfather]

Wow! This is no small topic of casual discussion, you are asking the high hard ones and jumping in with both feet.

I wonder if a definition of a disciple, of disciple making would be good place to start? I'm guessing when each of us sees that word disciple various things come to mind and I'm also guessing very few of us have the same things in mind when we see that word.

Grandfather as far as using new technology have you heard of or looked into "FaithLife"? It is a project started by Logos Bible Software to produce a Christian based community based loosely on Facebook but instead of being focused on social interaction be more of a tool for Bible study. Exactly how this works is hard to explain and information is limited unless you register into Faithlife. https://faithlife.com/

The basic logos software and the Faithlife Bible needed in this can be gotten free on the internet. The Faithlife Bible is work in progress. It is based on the Lexham English Bible. The idea is to incorporate everything needed for Bible Study into one book so that everyone is on the same page so to speak.

As I understand it Faithlife communities can be set up to include say a Sunday School class, a church, a group of churches of the same denomination, a group of like thinking people, a community, or the world. I think it is possible to have church wide study which everyone in the group can see and then have smaller groups which exchange info just between them but can share with the church.

The potential is there for say a Pastor of church to have a study of Job and give his observations and thoughts. Then have smaller groups further explore these points privately and then have them come back and share with the church on their findings and thoughts. I think the big thing is everyone involved can be as private or public as they want to be with their questions, concerns, and thoughts.

I have mixed emotions on this whole thing and truthfully the only thing I really know about the project is how little I do know. However I read somewhere what this project hoped to accomplish and it was all about disciple ship and disciple making.

Something you may or may not want to look into.

Ed,

Thank you for thinking I'm asking serious questions. I will look into FaithLife and see what solutions and opportunities it offers. Personally I'm not persuaded that technology can replace the personal relationships needed to true discipleship. I believe it can supplement it and support it, but with rare exception does it provide the necessary accountability that only comes when you can look someone in the eye and read their body language. Technology can provide for knowledge and a transfer of information, but KNOWING is not discipleship, being disciplined to do what you know - which is what I believe discipleship entails - is at the core of discipleship.

For example, I believe every poster here has responded to me with good intentions and, hopefully, they believe what they have written to be true. However, life tells me that people often say what is true but in practice they don't always do what they say. There is a saying that goes: We judge others by their actions, but we judge ourselves by our motives. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that people are hypocritical- in the true usage of the word - but that we all put up a good front. I would venture to guess that if we could walk with another poster for a few days we would discover they aren't what they seem, although they are desperately trying to become what they speak. Ah, but that is another story, or question, for another day.

So, let me ask you---- if I were a new believer and I was going to meet with you twice a month for the next year in order to be "discipled", can you give me a handful of the points you would want to be sure I understood and practice?

[Grandfather]

I asked this question of Ed in my previous post, but I would like everyone's input as well.

If I was a new believer and I committed to be "discipled" by you what are the principle points/doctrines/ teachings/practices etc that you would want to ensure I had in place that would a strong foundation that would enable me to walk as a believer? We are going to meet twice a month for 12 months. Each meeting is going to last about 90 minutes.

Here are some things to consider:
What are the principles you want to see me equipped with?
How are you going to determine they become a practice and not simply knowledge?
Are you going to learn of my personal life and adapt your teaching accordingly? Why or why not?
How available are you going to be to me in case I "get stuck" and need your help?
How much additional time during the two weeks are you going to require I put into this?
Are you going to require I attend your church while I undergo this discipleship process?

For the purpose of discussion, let's say I met you through a mutual friend. i've been attending church, because I believe it helps me be a better person. I thought I was a Christian, I lived my life with the "Christian philosophy" as my guiding principle and my wife shares my beliefs. I'm married and a blue collar worker. My wife works part time, we have 2 children 6 & 9. They like the church we currently attend and involved in some of the many church activities.

The church we attend is a "typical" non-denominational church. The pastor is ordained through a major denomination, but that denominational name is not found promoted anywhere within the church. (let's say it is AOG) The church size is about 375-425 and by all indications appears to be healthy spiritual. They are growing in number, they have "alter calls" (but for some reason I thought I was already "saved" so I did not see the need to ever respond) When I ask someone if we were "charismatic" they said: "Yes, we have a band, play upbeat music and raise our hands"

Okay, that's enough for now.... SO TAKE ME ON THE JOURNEY OF DISCIPLESHIP THAT YOU HAVE PLANNED.

[Rocky]

Ed wrote:
Let us not forget Gandhi was a pagan that worshiped cows as gods and unless God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the creator of Heaven and Earth and His Son Jesus Christ showed him great mercy the man known as Gandhi will one day be thrown into the lake of fire with Satan. So do we really care what he said?

I am sorry I might be reading you wrong and I know that tone is impossible to read on forums, You see this sounds kind of arrogant, so in turn this makes disciples that act like that. You seem to make boast about people going to hell. His religion is irrelevant here, but what he said is true, To me even your statement here proves his point.

[Rocky]

I asked this question of Ed in my previous post, but I would like everyone's input as well.

If I was a new believer and I committed to be "discipled" by you what are the principle points/doctrines/ teachings/practices etc that you would want to ensure I had in place that would a strong foundation that would enable me to walk as a believer? We are going to meet twice a month for 12 months. Each meeting is going to last about 90 minutes.

Here are some things to consider:
What are the principles you want to see me equipped with?
How are you going to determine they become a practice and not simply knowledge?
Are you going to learn of my personal life and adapt your teaching accordingly? Why or why not?
How available are you going to be to me in case I "get stuck" and need your help?
How much additional time during the two weeks are you going to require I put into this?
Are you going to require I attend your church while I undergo this discipleship process?

For the purpose of discussion, let's say I met you through a mutual friend. i've been attending church, because I believe it helps me be a better person. I thought I was a Christian, I lived my life with the "Christian philosophy" as my guiding principle and my wife shares my beliefs. I'm married and a blue collar worker. My wife works part time, we have 2 children 6 & 9. They like the church we currently attend and involved in some of the many church activities.

The church we attend is a "typical" non-denominational church. The pastor is ordained through a major denomination, but that denominational name is not found promoted anywhere within the church. (let's say it is AOG) The church size is about 375-425 and by all indications appears to be healthy spiritual. They are growing in number, they have "alter calls" (but for some reason I thought I was already "saved" so I did not see the need to ever respond) When I ask someone if we were "charismatic" they said: "Yes, we have a band, play upbeat music and raise our hands"

Okay, that's enough for now.... SO TAKE ME ON THE JOURNEY OF DISCIPLESHIP THAT YOU HAVE PLANNED.

I just don't see why you would have to stay on someone to make sure that they live right, people are going to do inevitably what they want to do, and all of the Discipleship classes and accountability partners are not going to change that. If person does not want to follow Christ they can't be made to. Do we need teaching? Yes. Do we need to learn theology? Yes. Do we need indoctrination? No. People need to be taught how to walk in love and be like Christ in this world. Some of this is over my head and I am not understanding all of what you are trying to say. But to me and I could be wrong you seem to be wanting to force people into living right who really don't want to. When Jesus said make disciples he did not mean to make it this complicated, a disciple simply means a follower of Christ, so go and make Christ followers. If someone really wants to follow him then they and they will pursue him with all of their being if they don't then they won't.. Maybe I am over simplifying things, but no one had to tell me to seek him or to learn of him. Because of the change brought about by the new birth I just wanted to and continually want to..

[Justaned]

Ed wrote:
Let us not forget Gandhi was a pagan that worshiped cows as gods and unless God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the creator of Heaven and Earth and His Son Jesus Christ showed him great mercy the man known as Gandhi will one day be thrown into the lake of fire with Satan. So do we really care what he said?

I am sorry I might be reading you wrong and I know that tone is impossible to read on forums, You see this sounds kind of arrogant, so in turn this makes disciples that act like that. You seem to make boast about people going to hell. His religion is irrelevant here, but what he said is true, To me even your statement here proves his point.

Rocky
No arrogance only a refusal to accept what unbelievers say about true believers. I asked myself was what he said true of a true Christian or was it misrepresentation of a true Christian? I believe it was the latter.
Had he said I like Christ but I don't like people that merely claim or pretend to be followers of Christ. I would not have had a problem. I suspect to most that is probably how they read it but that isn't what he said. What he said was an attempt to indict all Christians. Even Gandhi had a agenda set by the father of lies.

[Justaned]

So, let me ask you---- if I were a new believer and I was going to meet with you twice a month for the next year in order to be "discipled", can you give me a handful of the points you would want to be sure I understood and practice?

I would do everything I could to teach what salvation really is and how it is obtained. Sounds easy but how many connect the dots of their salvation with the Passover, with Blood Covenant, with feasts, with Tabernacle worship, with Abraham offering Isaac. Most know it was Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that provides their salvation but they have no idea why. Many think it was his pain, his torture, his humiliation and while in fact Jesus did experience all of this the basis of our salvation is not rooted in any of that. For me to make a disciple I would spend a lot of time on the Blood Covenant.

I likewise would spend time on the meaning of original language words that have been convoluted or had the fullness of their real meaning lost in their translation to English. Words like believe, blessing, lord, serving and servant-hood.

I would disciple on character traits God cited in one way or another as being important or precious in His sight.

[Rocky]

Ed wrote:
Let us not forget Gandhi was a pagan that worshiped cows as gods and unless God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the creator of Heaven and Earth and His Son Jesus Christ showed him great mercy the man known as Gandhi will one day be thrown into the lake of fire with Satan. So do we really care what he said?

I am sorry I might be reading you wrong and I know that tone is impossible to read on forums, You see this sounds kind of arrogant, so in turn this makes disciples that act like that. You seem to make boast about people going to hell. His religion is irrelevant here, but what he said is true, To me even your statement here proves his point.

Rocky
No arrogance only a refusal to accept what unbelievers say about true believers. I asked myself was what he said true of a true Christian or was it misrepresentation of a true Christian? I believe it was the latter.
Had he said I like Christ but I don't like people that merely claim or pretend to be followers of Christ. I would not have had a problem. I suspect to most that is probably how they read it but that isn't what he said. What he said was an attempt to indict all Christians. Even Gandhi had a agenda set by the father of lies.

Ed Apparently you seem to not want to admit that Christians, even "real Christians" can act so unlike Christ. I mean we all can act unlike Christ at times but it should not be a defining characteristic. What he said may have an agenda, but lets face it a lot of Christians are the most judgmental, condescending individuals you could ever want to meat unless you live in an area where everyone is perfect. I know not all Christians are this way, but I think you may be refusing to see this. I have seen this since I have been a Christian, every church I have attended I have witnessed church splits, arguing, bickering, seen people about come to blows out into he parking lot of one church, selfish ambitions, and self righteousness, so yes I may seem a bit cynical.. You seem to be making excuses for typical Christian behavior that is displayed now days, and say that they are just pretending. To me that just sounds like an excuse and a denial of a bigger problem. What Gandhi said rings true to me because it is what I have observed. On here yes I discuss and debates but in person I am really shy and reserved and very introverted, people like me are able to sit back and observe. I am not perfect either and I have my own issues, but Christians are typically mean and self absorbed and like to judge people. I can admit my hypocrisy most can't and that is a true hypocrite.

[Justaned]

Ed wrote:
Let us not forget Gandhi was a pagan that worshiped cows as gods and unless God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the creator of Heaven and Earth and His Son Jesus Christ showed him great mercy the man known as Gandhi will one day be thrown into the lake of fire with Satan. So do we really care what he said?

I am sorry I might be reading you wrong and I know that tone is impossible to read on forums, You see this sounds kind of arrogant, so in turn this makes disciples that act like that. You seem to make boast about people going to hell. His religion is irrelevant here, but what he said is true, To me even your statement here proves his point.

Rocky
No arrogance only a refusal to accept what unbelievers say about true believers. I asked myself was what he said true of a true Christian or was it misrepresentation of a true Christian? I believe it was the latter.
Had he said I like Christ but I don't like people that merely claim or pretend to be followers of Christ. I would not have had a problem. I suspect to most that is probably how they read it but that isn't what he said. What he said was an attempt to indict all Christians. Even Gandhi had a agenda set by the father of lies.

Ed Apparently you seem to not want to admit that Christians, even "real Christians" can act so unlike Christ. I mean we all can act unlike Christ at times but it should not be a defining characteristic. What he said may have an agenda, but lets face it a lot of Christians are the most judgmental, condescending individuals you could ever want to meat unless you live in an area where everyone is perfect. I know not all Christians are this way, but I think you may be refusing to see this. I have seen this since I have been a Christian, every church I have attended I have witnessed church splits, arguing, bickering, seen people about come to blows out into he parking lot of one church, selfish ambitions, and self righteousness, so yes I may seem a bit cynical.. You seem to be making excuses for typical Christian behavior that is displayed now days, and say that they are just pretending. To me that just sounds like an excuse and a denial of a bigger problem. What Gandhi said rings true to me because it is what I have observed. On here yes I discuss and debates but in person I am really shy and reserved and very introverted, people like me are able to sit back and observe. I am not perfect either and I have my own issues, but Christians are typically mean and self absorbed and like to judge people. I can admit my hypocrisy most can't and that is a true hypocrite.

Rocky
I think we are talking past each other. Was Christ judgmental? Condescending? Did He argue, bicker, actually come to blows. I think you have to answer no. So if a person is following Christ would we expect to see those traits in them? Not if they were truly following Christ. I think what you are talking about and saw are people that claim to be Christ followers but in fact aren't.

Now I am not saying all these people aren't saved, I saying they aren't Christ followers, which is the definition of a Christian.

The reason what Gandhi said rang true to you is because that is how Satan has managed to make the church look with his children mingled in with true Christians. Being unsaved Gandhi's spiritual father according to Jesus is Satan. Satan is feeding his thoughts. He might be the nicest guy in the world but unless he was saved he was still a child of Satan.