Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Community

[Grandfather]

I believe that American culture has moved away from a geography community. There was a time when families grew up, grew old and dies within the same area. Extended family lived close by, often within easy walking distance. I know it sometimes occurs today, but I believe it to be the exception, not the rule.

Today we are lucky if we know the neighbors names that border our property, but seldom do we have a relationship with them. I'm old enough to remember borrowing milk (eggs/sugar/etc) from the neighbors. (Of getting them even when they weren't home because the house was open) That sense of community is gone. (Again for most of America, I understand there are exceptions.)

For the sake of discussion I will call this condition "isolationism"

I also understand that in many churches there is a move to have people join in "small groups" of some sort. Perhaps you are encouraged to be a part of a home bible study, a men's/woman's group, a seniors group, a prayer circle, etc.

My question, posed in part by the post of 100 things, what is the impact of "isolationism" on the local church? How does it effect making disciples for the kingdom? Has this "isolationism" played a role in the church making "converts" without the necessary discipleship?

I believe it has, but I'm not certain as to HOW IT HAS and I've begun researching and studying the relationship between community and discipleship. I would appreciate discussion, not pat responses.

[Grandfather]

As I'm researching this subject I am operating under the following assumptions:

1- There is no true discipleship with accountability.
I believe that the church has exchanged the meaning of discipleship for a knowledge of doctrines/teachings. Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe you can discipleship without gaining a working knowledge on some subjects, but simply knowing the subject does not make you a disciple.

2 - There is no true accountability without transparency.
Having an "accountability partner" is a wonderful resource, but how truthful are you with them? For example, I could tell you my thought life is fine, but that is because I've deleted my internet browser history and you don't know where I've been. And if I only meet you for an hour a week can I learn enough about you to know if you are hiding something?

3 - Transparency and Accountablity are more easily disguised when we live in "isolationism"
Because you don't know my neighbors, nor do they know me, it is difficult to determine if my accountability and transparency are real or a product of wishful thinking.

Goal - If Discipleship is the desired outcome, what can the church do to encourage/promote/enable community? And what does that look like?

I also believe, that as pessimistic as it sounds, most of us were fortunate in our discipleship. Our discipleship was the result of one person taking an interest in us and not the result of a systematic approach to making disciples.

[Justaned]

I believe that American culture has moved away from a geography community. There was a time when families grew up, grew old and dies within the same area. Extended family lived close by, often within easy walking distance. I know it sometimes occurs today, but I believe it to be the exception, not the rule.

Today we are lucky if we know the neighbors names that border our property, but seldom do we have a relationship with them. I'm old enough to remember borrowing milk (eggs/sugar/etc) from the neighbors. (Of getting them even when they weren't home because the house was open) That sense of community is gone. (Again for most of America, I understand there are exceptions.)

For the sake of discussion I will call this condition "isolationism"

I also understand that in many churches there is a move to have people join in "small groups" of some sort. Perhaps you are encouraged to be a part of a home bible study, a men's/woman's group, a seniors group, a prayer circle, etc.

My question, posed in part by the post of 100 things, what is the impact of "isolationism" on the local church? How does it effect making disciples for the kingdom? Has this "isolationism" played a role in the church making "converts" without the necessary discipleship?

I believe it has, but I'm not certain as to HOW IT HAS and I've begun researching and studying the relationship between community and discipleship. I would appreciate discussion, not pat responses.

I grew up in the environment you described of people knowing people. We were a group of six boys and we had six sets of parents. If we did something wrong there was a good chance we were going to get six paddlings, at the very least two one from the mother that caught us and one from our own parent.

Times were very different, values were very different, people were known by their families not by what they owned or their job or how much money they had. People weren't looking to get rich or even to get money they were looking to live their lives in a community of people.

Over time facades went up and everyone pretended to be something they weren't. Some of the facades were intentional and others totally unintentional but they were there nonetheless.

Back then I was taught by observation, when neighbor bartered a deal with the saw mill operator I learn value and work ethics. When my dad bought land from the neighbor I learned how honest men treated each other. When there was a property line squabble I learned how good men settled their differences. Things kids today seldom if ever see.

Today's kids learn most of their ethics and social interaction in school, from TV or from computers.

In today's environment there is no accountability unless each party desires it and is willing to expose themselves totally to someone else.

Even in small group situations there is little that isn't done behind a facade of some sort.

For instance we usually eat Sunday dinner with a group of friends, we share, we laugh, we cry, we pray but at the end of the meal we return to our homes as if the others did not exist. It is hard to disciple in such a relationship.

[Justaned]

As I'm researching this subject I am operating under the following assumptions:

1- There is no true discipleship with accountability.
I believe that the church has exchanged the meaning of discipleship for a knowledge of doctrines/teachings. Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe you can discipleship without gaining a working knowledge on some subjects, but simply knowing the subject does not make you a disciple.

2 - There is no true accountability without transparency.
Having an "accountability partner" is a wonderful resource, but how truthful are you with them? For example, I could tell you my thought life is fine, but that is because I've deleted my internet browser history and you don't know where I've been. And if I only meet you for an hour a week can I learn enough about you to know if you are hiding something?

3 - Transparency and Accountablity are more easily disguised when we live in "isolationism"
Because you don't know my neighbors, nor do they know me, it is difficult to determine if my accountability and transparency are real or a product of wishful thinking.

Goal - If Discipleship is the desired outcome, what can the church do to encourage/promote/enable community? And what does that look like?

I also believe, that as pessimistic as it sounds, most of us were fortunate in our discipleship. Our discipleship was the result of one person taking an interest in us and not the result of a systematic approach to making disciples.

Disciple ship is a lost word and will in my opinion be lost to future generations.
I was discipled because I had an overwhelming desire to be discipled and I had a person that had a vested interest into discipling me. Without those two qualities discipleship simply will not happen.

Not to be pessimistic the church has lost it desire to disciple. Our churches today are trying to survive, so they are seeking members which will bring income. The ministry gifts were given to equip the saints. Today the gifts are used to make an interesting and if I may use the word entertaining experience of church to insure the people will return.

Somewhere the concept of servanthood and service to the church and community has been lost. I believe only prayer will ever bring it back. But even in prayer facades are thrown up and instead of praying to God some pray for the benefit of others to hear.

But I think prayer is answer. Prayer will create a hunger for discipleship and prayer will create a desire to servanthood and willingness to disciple others.

I don't want to be the wet blanket on this discussion but if things are ever going to change, change has got to start with us.

[Grandfather]

As I'm researching this subject I am operating under the following assumptions:

1- There is no true discipleship with accountability.
I believe that the church has exchanged the meaning of discipleship for a knowledge of doctrines/teachings. Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe you can discipleship without gaining a working knowledge on some subjects, but simply knowing the subject does not make you a disciple.

2 - There is no true accountability without transparency.
Having an "accountability partner" is a wonderful resource, but how truthful are you with them? For example, I could tell you my thought life is fine, but that is because I've deleted my internet browser history and you don't know where I've been. And if I only meet you for an hour a week can I learn enough about you to know if you are hiding something?

3 - Transparency and Accountablity are more easily disguised when we live in "isolationism"
Because you don't know my neighbors, nor do they know me, it is difficult to determine if my accountability and transparency are real or a product of wishful thinking.

Goal - If Discipleship is the desired outcome, what can the church do to encourage/promote/enable community? And what does that look like?

I also believe, that as pessimistic as it sounds, most of us were fortunate in our discipleship. Our discipleship was the result of one person taking an interest in us and not the result of a systematic approach to making disciples.

Disciple ship is a lost word and will in my opinion be lost to future generations.
I was discipled because I had an overwhelming desire to be discipled and I had a person that had a vested interest into discipling me. Without those two qualities discipleship simply will not happen.

Not to be pessimistic the church has lost it desire to disciple. Our churches today are trying to survive, so they are seeking members which will bring income. The ministry gifts were given to equip the saints. Today the gifts are used to make an interesting and if I may use the word entertaining experience of church to insure the people will return.

Somewhere the concept of servanthood and service to the church and community has been lost. I believe only prayer will ever bring it back. But even in prayer facades are thrown up and instead of praying to God some pray for the benefit of others to hear.

But I think prayer is answer. Prayer will create a hunger for discipleship and prayer will create a desire to servanthood and willingness to disciple others.

I don't want to be the wet blanket on this discussion but if things are ever going to change, change has got to start with us.

Ed,
I don't believe you are throwing a wet blanket on anything. What is that saying about what insanity is: Doing the same thing, the same way and expecting different results. Right now I believe the church is continuing to do the same thing the same way it has for the past 50 years but they, the church, aren't getting the results of discipleship. Clearly something must change, the church must change the way it is going about making disciples. Please understand I'm not saying change the meaning of discipleship. Nor am I saying we change the message of discipleship. I am suggesting we change the methodology we use in making disciples.

Is prayer important? YES but somewhere ACTION has to take place! No one every got saved by prayer alone, some had to proclaim the Word of God to them and they had to "Call on the name of the Lord"

I'm not interested in change simply for the sake of change. Nor to I care to simply upgrade something to simply make it new and modern. What I am looking for is something that will radically engage the culture of today in a life transforming manner. I don't believe we can return to the community of the past, but I do believe we can discover the values that made those communities important and we can nurture an environment where they will grow and flourish again.

Again, your insight is welcome.

[Justaned]

As I'm researching this subject I am operating under the following assumptions:

1- There is no true discipleship with accountability.
I believe that the church has exchanged the meaning of discipleship for a knowledge of doctrines/teachings. Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe you can discipleship without gaining a working knowledge on some subjects, but simply knowing the subject does not make you a disciple.

2 - There is no true accountability without transparency.
Having an "accountability partner" is a wonderful resource, but how truthful are you with them? For example, I could tell you my thought life is fine, but that is because I've deleted my internet browser history and you don't know where I've been. And if I only meet you for an hour a week can I learn enough about you to know if you are hiding something?

3 - Transparency and Accountablity are more easily disguised when we live in "isolationism"
Because you don't know my neighbors, nor do they know me, it is difficult to determine if my accountability and transparency are real or a product of wishful thinking.

Goal - If Discipleship is the desired outcome, what can the church do to encourage/promote/enable community? And what does that look like?

I also believe, that as pessimistic as it sounds, most of us were fortunate in our discipleship. Our discipleship was the result of one person taking an interest in us and not the result of a systematic approach to making disciples.

Disciple ship is a lost word and will in my opinion be lost to future generations.
I was discipled because I had an overwhelming desire to be discipled and I had a person that had a vested interest into discipling me. Without those two qualities discipleship simply will not happen.

Not to be pessimistic the church has lost it desire to disciple. Our churches today are trying to survive, so they are seeking members which will bring income. The ministry gifts were given to equip the saints. Today the gifts are used to make an interesting and if I may use the word entertaining experience of church to insure the people will return.

Somewhere the concept of servanthood and service to the church and community has been lost. I believe only prayer will ever bring it back. But even in prayer facades are thrown up and instead of praying to God some pray for the benefit of others to hear.

But I think prayer is answer. Prayer will create a hunger for discipleship and prayer will create a desire to servanthood and willingness to disciple others.

I don't want to be the wet blanket on this discussion but if things are ever going to change, change has got to start with us.

Ed,
I don't believe you are throwing a wet blanket on anything. What is that saying about what insanity is: Doing the same thing, the same way and expecting different results. Right now I believe the church is continuing to do the same thing the same way it has for the past 50 years but they, the church, aren't getting the results of discipleship. Clearly something must change, the church must change the way it is going about making disciples. Please understand I'm not saying change the meaning of discipleship. Nor am I saying we change the message of discipleship. I am suggesting we change the methodology we use in making disciples.

Is prayer important? YES but somewhere ACTION has to take place! No one every got saved by prayer alone, some had to proclaim the Word of God to them and they had to "Call on the name of the Lord"

I'm not interested in change simply for the sake of change. Nor to I care to simply upgrade something to simply make it new and modern. What I am looking for is something that will radically engage the culture of today in a life transforming manner. I don't believe we can return to the community of the past, but I do believe we can discover the values that made those communities important and we can nurture an environment where they will grow and flourish again.

Again, your insight is welcome.

I think I may have not made myself clear when I said prayer. I meant those that need discipleship should pray that God develops a desire for discipleship in their lives and those that can disciple need to pray that God places a desire to disciple someone within them.

As I said the ministry gifts were given to equip the saints to do the work of the Lord. Some how that concept has gottne lost. Today the ministry gifts are used for every thing but equipping the saints. The gifts are used to build bigger churches, to better entertain those that do attend, to create attractions that people come back and every so often to draw people to the altar. But that is where it stops.
People are told to repeat a prayer, told their saved, given a booklet which is usually the book of John and told to be back in church next sunday and to pay their tithes. That is it.

They usually have a thousand questions and no place to go to get answers. They have no real doctrine and no real understanding of how their salvation was acquired. They are at a lost and they are left to bump around in the "church" world trying to find answers. Far to many turn to TV and get just filled with nonsense that they try to knit together into some kind of belief system.

This won't change until those in ministry learn to make disciples and people that need discipled learn to seek out someone that will disciple them.

[Grandfather]

I think I may have not made myself clear when I said prayer. I meant those that need discipleship should pray that God develops a desire for discipleship in their lives and those that can disciple need to pray that God places a desire to disciple someone within them.

As I said the ministry gifts were given to equip the saints to do the work of the Lord. Some how that concept has gottne lost. Today the ministry gifts are used for every thing but equipping the saints. The gifts are used to build bigger churches, to better entertain those that do attend, to create attractions that people come back and every so often to draw people to the altar. But that is where it stops.
People are told to repeat a prayer, told their saved, given a booklet which is usually the book of John and told to be back in church next sunday and to pay their tithes. That is it.

They usually have a thousand questions and no place to go to get answers. They have no real doctrine and no real understanding of how their salvation was acquired. They are at a lost and they are left to bump around in the "church" world trying to find answers. Far to many turn to TV and get just filled with nonsense that they try to knit together into some kind of belief system.

This won't change until those in ministry learn to make disciples and people that need discipled learn to seek out someone that will disciple them.

Ed, I won't jump on you, but you need to explain the openning statement "those that need discipleship should pray that God develops a desire for discipleship " To me that sounds almost like saying an unsaved person needs to pray that God sends someone to help him get saved. I agree with the idea that an people need to have a desire to be discipled and I believe that is in part something that is at the root of my search. WHY don't people want to be discipled?

I'll give a couple of reasons:
1 - Few people know what true discipleship looks like. Some think discipleship is meeting for a cup of coffee once a week and going over a memory verse. Other view it as the following some "big name" TV preachers have where you attend every meeting you can and you plan every vacation around attending another. Other think discipleship is attending a church class and completing several worksheets while obtaining a "passing" grade.
2- Few people understand the cost of discipleship This cost cuts both ways, it costs the disciple and the disciplier. Just look at the examples above, what did it really cost? Sure if someone traveled to see/hear a speaker there could be a great amount of money spend, but is this the real cost that the gospels speak of?
3 - Few people see the benefit of discipleship. I believe people are (falsely) looking for titles, degrees and connections and have overlooked the value of discipleship. Perhaps "overlooked" is the wrong term because that would imply it was there in the first place. I believe true discipleship is so rare that many in churches would not realize it when they saw it.

When I wrote that last point, I wanted to say that discipleship might be called "abuse" in today's culture of freedom and grace. I have just completed re-reading the book of Judges. Each cycle of sin/deliverance got worse than the one before it. I believe the church, as well as the world, is in those times. We are so hungry that we have accepted the junk food offered to us from pulpits all over America. And we've become so accustom to "junk food" that eating healthy does not appeal to us. I could draw countless analogies to the food/health industry, but this post is going longer than most will read. (Another "problem" with today's culture, if you don't provide a solution within the opening paragraph people go elsewhere. They do that at church as well.)

[titus213]

"True discipleship" -- is in the eye of the beholder. There is no cookie-cutter definition or approach to discipleship.

I think I may have not made myself clear when I said prayer. I meant those that need discipleship should pray that God develops a desire for discipleship in their lives and those that can disciple need to pray that God places a desire to disciple someone within them.

As I said the ministry gifts were given to equip the saints to do the work of the Lord. Some how that concept has gottne lost. Today the ministry gifts are used for every thing but equipping the saints. The gifts are used to build bigger churches, to better entertain those that do attend, to create attractions that people come back and every so often to draw people to the altar. But that is where it stops.
People are told to repeat a prayer, told their saved, given a booklet which is usually the book of John and told to be back in church next sunday and to pay their tithes. That is it.

They usually have a thousand questions and no place to go to get answers. They have no real doctrine and no real understanding of how their salvation was acquired. They are at a lost and they are left to bump around in the "church" world trying to find answers. Far to many turn to TV and get just filled with nonsense that they try to knit together into some kind of belief system.

This won't change until those in ministry learn to make disciples and people that need discipled learn to seek out someone that will disciple them.

Ed, I won't jump on you, but you need to explain the openning statement "those that need discipleship should pray that God develops a desire for discipleship " To me that sounds almost like saying an unsaved person needs to pray that God sends someone to help him get saved. I agree with the idea that an people need to have a desire to be discipled and I believe that is in part something that is at the root of my search. WHY don't people want to be discipled?

I'll give a couple of reasons:
1 - Few people know what true discipleship looks like. Some think discipleship is meeting for a cup of coffee once a week and going over a memory verse. Other view it as the following some "big name" TV preachers have where you attend every meeting you can and you plan every vacation around attending another. Other think discipleship is attending a church class and completing several worksheets while obtaining a "passing" grade.
2- Few people understand the cost of discipleship This cost cuts both ways, it costs the disciple and the disciplier. Just look at the examples above, what did it really cost? Sure if someone traveled to see/hear a speaker there could be a great amount of money spend, but is this the real cost that the gospels speak of?
3 - Few people see the benefit of discipleship. I believe people are (falsely) looking for titles, degrees and connections and have overlooked the value of discipleship. Perhaps "overlooked" is the wrong term because that would imply it was there in the first place. I believe true discipleship is so rare that many in churches would not realize it when they saw it.

When I wrote that last point, I wanted to say that discipleship might be called "abuse" in today's culture of freedom and grace. I have just completed re-reading the book of Judges. Each cycle of sin/deliverance got worse than the one before it. I believe the church, as well as the world, is in those times. We are so hungry that we have accepted the junk food offered to us from pulpits all over America. And we've become so accustom to "junk food" that eating healthy does not appeal to us. I could draw countless analogies to the food/health industry, but this post is going longer than most will read. (Another "problem" with today's culture, if you don't provide a solution within the opening paragraph people go elsewhere. They do that at church as well.)

[Grandfather]

"True discipleship" -- is in the eye of the beholder. There is no cookie-cutter definition or approach to discipleship.

Titus, I will embrace a portion of your statement: "There is no cookie-cutter .. approach to discipleship" and I will allow you to further explain the idea there is "no cookie-cutter definition" further. But, for now I reject the notion that "true discipleship-- is in the eye of the beholder" and here is why. I don't think you would say "true Christianity is in the eye of the beholder". There are many differences of opinions and positions with the realm of orthodox Christianity, but then there are those that fall outside of that realm, but those in that number believe they are "true believers" So, I submit there must a some standard for what discipleship looks like. For this I am talking about what is learned, not how it is learn. Remember a few post back I said the message was what was important not the methodology.

I consider discipleship much like trade unions used to be. A person would be an apprentice and work under a master craftsman who would instruct and guide him. After a period of time, when the master craftsman thought the apprentice had learned the trade properly the student then became a journeyman. Then after time and with the proper effort, practice and workshipment, the journeyman would be recognized by his peers and other master craftsmen and then become a craftsman himself then master craftsman.

Now there was no formal curriculum for any of this journey, hence I agree there is no "cookie cutter" approach, but there was a standard of workmanship and knowledge that was required to be a journeyman, then craftsman, then master craftsman. And because of this a reject the notion of it "being in the eye of the beholder".

I suggest that we, the church, lack master craftsmen and only have a few true craftsmen, so we have mistakenly looked at journeymans works and elevated it to the level of "master craftsmen" because we don't have work to compare it to. Simply calling it such because it is the best you have doesn't make it so.

But please weigh in because I don't have all the answers and I realize/believe there is a major deficiency in the area of discipleship. Perhaps you don't believe there is and if that is the case please share with me why I'm not seeing it. Or perhaps you agree, but believe there is a better way to close the gap, please share that as well.

[Rocky]

I may sound cynical but I will say the Church by in large especially in the bible belt does need to change. The fact is most Christians are mean, opinionated, condescending, who like to throw their judgments on to others and then boast and think, I am just being persecuted for my faith, when in reality you are being persecuted because of your hypocrisy not because you are like Jesus, and then that make judgmental condemning disciples who are twice as much as the devil as they are. May be the church needs to be more like Jesus again and then maybe just maybe proper discipleship will happen, remember what Jesus said “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples"