Let me address your last paragraph first.Grandfather wrote:Ed, I won't jump on you, but you need to explain the openning statement "those that need discipleship should pray that God develops a desire for discipleship " To me that sounds almost like saying an unsaved person needs to pray that God sends someone to help him get saved. I agree with the idea that an people need to have a desire to be discipled and I believe that is in part something that is at the root of my search. WHY don't people want to be discipled?Justaned wrote:I think I may have not made myself clear when I said prayer. I meant those that need discipleship should pray that God develops a desire for discipleship in their lives and those that can disciple need to pray that God places a desire to disciple someone within them.
As I said the ministry gifts were given to equip the saints to do the work of the Lord. Some how that concept has gottne lost. Today the ministry gifts are used for every thing but equipping the saints. The gifts are used to build bigger churches, to better entertain those that do attend, to create attractions that people come back and every so often to draw people to the altar. But that is where it stops.
People are told to repeat a prayer, told their saved, given a booklet which is usually the book of John and told to be back in church next sunday and to pay their tithes. That is it.
They usually have a thousand questions and no place to go to get answers. They have no real doctrine and no real understanding of how their salvation was acquired. They are at a lost and they are left to bump around in the "church" world trying to find answers. Far to many turn to TV and get just filled with nonsense that they try to knit together into some kind of belief system.
This won't change until those in ministry learn to make disciples and people that need discipled learn to seek out someone that will disciple them.
I'll give a couple of reasons:
1 - Few people know what true discipleship looks like. Some think discipleship is meeting for a cup of coffee once a week and going over a memory verse. Other view it as the following some "big name" TV preachers have where you attend every meeting you can and you plan every vacation around attending another. Other think discipleship is attending a church class and completing several worksheets while obtaining a "passing" grade.
2- Few people understand the cost of discipleship This cost cuts both ways, it costs the disciple and the disciplier. Just look at the examples above, what did it really cost? Sure if someone traveled to see/hear a speaker there could be a great amount of money spend, but is this the real cost that the gospels speak of?
3 - Few people see the benefit of discipleship. I believe people are (falsely) looking for titles, degrees and connections and have overlooked the value of discipleship. Perhaps "overlooked" is the wrong term because that would imply it was there in the first place. I believe true discipleship is so rare that many in churches would not realize it when they saw it.
When I wrote that last point, I wanted to say that discipleship might be called "abuse" in today's culture of freedom and grace. I have just completed re-reading the book of Judges. Each cycle of sin/deliverance got worse than the one before it. I believe the church, as well as the world, is in those times. We are so hungry that we have accepted the junk food offered to us from pulpits all over America. And we've become so accustom to "junk food" that eating healthy does not appeal to us. I could draw countless analogies to the food/health industry, but this post is going longer than most will read. (Another "problem" with today's culture, if you don't provide a solution within the opening paragraph people go elsewhere. They do that at church as well.)
I totally agree. To most discipleship would be considered abuseWhen I wrote that last point, I wanted to say that discipleship might be called "abuse" in today's culture of freedom and grace. I have just completed re-reading the book of Judges. Each cycle of sin/deliverance got worse than the one before it. I believe the church, as well as the world, is in those times. We are so hungry that we have accepted the junk food offered to us from pulpits all over America. And we've become so accustom to "junk food" that eating healthy does not appeal to us. I could draw countless analogies to the food/health industry, but this post is going longer than most will read. (Another "problem" with today's culture, if you don't provide a solution within the opening paragraph people go elsewhere. They do that at church as well.)
Real holiness to most would be considered abuse. And the Junk that is served in most churches is just that junk. People are taught to self focused, what is in it for me. Instead of serving God and serving other despite the cost.
Now to my point on prayer. Ever notice new converts are instantly taught to pray to fill their "fleshly" desires first. Most pastors will disagree with that statement but go to any church and listen intently to what the Pastor prays, what the church prays. Rarely is for more of God, rarely is it for a stronger prayer life and almost never is it a desire to be discipled and learn more of the wonders of Christian walk. If we can almost instantly teach new converts to pray for their jobs, their families, the financial situation, their children, the desires certainly they can be taught to pray to draw closer to God, to be discipled.
The cost of discipleship is lost to this generation because real disciple making is not happening. However the cost may be in time, energy and even money but the pay back is blessing- real contentedness. When we are serving God for the right reasons the concern of the cost to us falls aside and the more we do the more God blesses.
Lastly point 1 your are correct most people don't know what discipleship looks like because they have never seen it. I once talked to one of the most dedicated get people saved woman I have ever talked too. She was real and she was a joy to watch. This woman flowed with the Holy Spirit and would tell people of Jesus at the drop of the hat. I once personally witnessed the fact she lead 4 people to the Lord in a car dealership where she got her car repaired. She had called me that morning excited saying her car was broke. I asked her what was wrong with her rejoicing that her car was broke. She told me it would allow her to witness to new people. And she did.
I talked to her about her early walk in Christianity found she and her husband had be discipled by a neighbor that once live across the street from them. As she told of this learning process you could see this neighbor was not concerned about the cost to him or the time but instead tirelessly worked with her.
Grandfather I think it will be interesting to see how many will step into this discussion and what they say.