Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Romans 7:14-25

[Justaned]

Romans 8 pretty well establishes the fact that Paul was not writing about his experience in Christ Jesus when describing the struggle in Romans 7. Since there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and he clearly did feel condemned by such a struggle, we have the answer to the question.

Titus213
I usually agree with you on most everything you say but I really don't think you are doing justice when you simply say there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The text says a lot more.
Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

This is exactly what Paul was talking about the battle of the flesh and spirit.

So Ed,...

Do you think Paul was walking after the flesh or after the Spirit?

I think Paul was crucifying the flesh daily and expressing the spiritual battle that must be fought to do it.

Well Ed,

If according to you guys Paul was controlled by the devil... and walking after the flesh... then is there any hope for any of us?

Never said controlled! Never mentioned the devil!
I said Paul is writing expressing or detailing or explaining his (and our battle) between flesh and spirit. That is why we must crucify the flesh. Flesh will always have its fleshly desires. We can never be free of the Lust of the eye, Lust of the flesh, Pride of life. They always remain openings that battle our spirit. Our flesh is sin tainted and until we get bodies of perfection we must fight the battle that Paul was detailing.

[Justaned]

Romans 8 pretty well establishes the fact that Paul was not writing about his experience in Christ Jesus when describing the struggle in Romans 7. Since there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and he clearly did feel condemned by such a struggle, we have the answer to the question.

Titus213
I usually agree with you on most everything you say but I really don't think you are doing justice when you simply say there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The text says a lot more.
Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

This is exactly what Paul was talking about the battle of the flesh and spirit.

No, it isn't. The words, if they belong to verse 1 (there is some doubt) actually make the case even stronger, because they define the person who is "in Christ' as someone who walks according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh. And as Romans 8:4-9 point out, believers are not "in the flesh" but "in the Spirit" if they are saved at all. Contrast this with what Paul describes as his experience in Romans 7 where he is "sold under sin", unable to do what pleases God and unable to figure out how to do what pleases God . . . a "wretched man" who longs to be delivered. There is no mention of the Spirit, no sense of any hope at all. Just condemnation. Until the "wretched man" finds Christ, and "in Christ" is set free not only from condemnation, but from the slavery to sin, confusion and despair brought about by the "law of sin and death".

As I said in an earlier posting, I don't doubt that there is a battle of flesh and Spirit which we face as believers, but we don't walk according to the flesh. If we are "in Christ", we walk according to the Spirit. When we stumble, there is "no condemnation". Our experience is not (or ought not to be) what Paul describes as the hopeless, powerless, confused desperation of the condemned.

My own opinion is that in Romans 7 Paul describes the struggle of a Pharisee (as he was) under the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, beginning to realize that the Law is not physical (as Pharisees believed) but spiritual, and that if this is true then the inner attitude and not merely the outward action is what God looked at. It was this conviction that Paul experienced as his personal wake-up call, enabling him to see himself for what he really was. His use of the present tense dramatically puts the reader into his shoes as he came to the realization that, contrary to everything he had believed up to that point, he was "carnal, sold under sin".

Are you saying once we are saved we are free of all temptation?

That we don't slip and have regrets?

That we never miss the mark and walk in perfection?

We never have to God in prayer asking for forgiveness once we are saved?

If we do go to God in prayer seeking forgiveness is it not our regret, our knowledge that we can are hopeless without God to be righteous again?

Do we not go to God in prayer with resignation that without His grace we are lost?

That we are powerless to save ourselves?

All the things Paul talks about.

I submit every Christian had better feel those things daily or their salvation is not in their heart but instead in their head and they have convinced themselves they are already perfected in Christ. A false belief held by many that haven't read the rest of the story.

[bibleman]

Romans 8 pretty well establishes the fact that Paul was not writing about his experience in Christ Jesus when describing the struggle in Romans 7. Since there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and he clearly did feel condemned by such a struggle, we have the answer to the question.

Titus213
I usually agree with you on most everything you say but I really don't think you are doing justice when you simply say there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The text says a lot more.
Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

This is exactly what Paul was talking about the battle of the flesh and spirit.

So Ed,...

Do you think Paul was walking after the flesh or after the Spirit?

I think Paul was crucifying the flesh daily and expressing the spiritual battle that must be fought to do it.

Well Ed,

If according to you guys Paul was controlled by the devil... and walking after the flesh... then is there any hope for any of us?

Never said controlled! Never mentioned the devil!
I said Paul is writing expressing or detailing or explaining his (and our battle) between flesh and spirit. That is why we must crucify the flesh. Flesh will always have its fleshly desires. We can never be free of the Lust of the eye, Lust of the flesh, Pride of life. They always remain openings that battle our spirit. Our flesh is sin tainted and until we get bodies of perfection we must fight the battle that Paul was detailing.

Well Ed,

You said that you believed the account of Romans 7 was Paul AFTER his salvation.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So you are saying that AFTER Paul's salvation: "sin that dwelleth in me." "evil is present with me."

Who was this sin or evil that dwelt with and was present with Paul.

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

What is that but sin controlling Paul?

[titus213]

Are you saying once we are saved we are free of all temptation?

That we don't slip and have regrets?

That we never miss the mark and walk in perfection?

No, in fact if you check what I wrote you will see I said the opposite.

But to the question at hand -- The liberty, lack of condemnation, and new-found life in the Spirit of Romans 8 is a total 180 from the life Paul describes himself experiencing in Romans 7. There is no getting around that. No Christian needs to live under the cloud of "I am carnal, sold under sin" and the resulting condemnation. No Bible-believer, walking according to the Spirit (as all those "in Christ" will be, according to Paul) will ever need to say "how to perform that which is good I find not".
I am in complete agreement with Dake that in chapter 7 we have a picture of a soul held captive by sin and not that of a redeemed soul. The Christian is, by definition, no longer held captive by sin and Satan because of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1.13).

[Grandfather]

Are you saying once we are saved we are free of all temptation?

That we don't slip and have regrets?

That we never miss the mark and walk in perfection?

No, in fact if you check what I wrote you will see I said the opposite.

But to the question at hand -- The liberty, lack of condemnation, and new-found life in the Spirit of Romans 8 is a total 180 from the life Paul describes himself experiencing in Romans 7. There is no getting around that. No Christian needs to live under the cloud of "I am carnal, sold under sin" and the resulting condemnation. No Bible-believer, walking according to the Spirit (as all those "in Christ" will be, according to Paul) will ever need to say "how to perform that which is good I find not".
I am in complete agreement with Dake that in chapter 7 we have a picture of a soul held captive by sin and not that of a redeemed soul. The Christian is, by definition, no longer held captive by sin and Satan because of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1.13).

Titus - I humbly suggest a different view. It is not a case of either/or Paul wrote of the struggles that every Christian endures. A lot has been mentioned here about being a new creature in Christ and the old being passed away and to some degree that is true. Yet Paul also writes to the church in Corinth and tells these Christians they are acting worldly. Paul doesn't say they aren't "in Christ" or they aren't saved but simply that they are ruled by their flesh. If the simplistic approach of "you're a new creature" was true, then why didn't it impact these people in Corinth? Also if we are such new creatures, then why are we told to RENEW our minds in Romans 12?

The power of "there is now therefor no condemnation" set a person free after his is fallen and should be found guilty. For example, if I go to trial for a crime I did not commit I have no sense of condemnation because I did not do the crime. However, if I did the crime I would have condemnation. YET if someone paid the price for that crime and took the punishment on my behalf the judge would rule and say "there is now therefor no condemnation...."

[Rocky]

My own opinion is that in Romans 7 Paul describes the struggle of a Pharisee (as he was) under the convicting work of the Holy Spirit, beginning to realize that the Law is not physical (as Pharisees believed) but spiritual, and that if this is true then the inner attitude and not merely the outward action is what God looked at. It was this conviction that Paul experienced as his personal wake-up call, enabling him to see himself for what he really was. His use of the present tense dramatically puts the reader into his shoes as he came to the realization that, contrary to everything he had believed up to that point, he was "carnal, sold under sin".

Hi, if Paul is describing his experience as Pharisee then why is it spoken of in present tense? You see the grammatical tense, as I have pointed out dose not support the claim that he was speaking of himself as a Pharisee before salvation, not saying that you or Leon are wrong, its just that Paul not once here says it was a past experience, read it again you will see. Paul does use past tense in other verses but not in theses verses. I see you are using past tense in your reply here like "as he was or "he was carnal, sold under sin", But Paul says "I do" and "I am." So unless someone can explain this, I am on the fence with this and cannot be fully convinced that Paul is referring to a past struggle because the language does not support what you are claiming. It breaks the rules of grammatical tense. Is Paul playing mind games trying to make us guess what he means? Not if you just take it for what the language is saying .

[Justaned]

Romans 8 pretty well establishes the fact that Paul was not writing about his experience in Christ Jesus when describing the struggle in Romans 7. Since there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and he clearly did feel condemned by such a struggle, we have the answer to the question.

Titus213
I usually agree with you on most everything you say but I really don't think you are doing justice when you simply say there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The text says a lot more.
Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

This is exactly what Paul was talking about the battle of the flesh and spirit.

So Ed,...

Do you think Paul was walking after the flesh or after the Spirit?

I think Paul was crucifying the flesh daily and expressing the spiritual battle that must be fought to do it.

Well Ed,

If according to you guys Paul was controlled by the devil... and walking after the flesh... then is there any hope for any of us?

Never said controlled! Never mentioned the devil!
I said Paul is writing expressing or detailing or explaining his (and our battle) between flesh and spirit. That is why we must crucify the flesh. Flesh will always have its fleshly desires. We can never be free of the Lust of the eye, Lust of the flesh, Pride of life. They always remain openings that battle our spirit. Our flesh is sin tainted and until we get bodies of perfection we must fight the battle that Paul was detailing.

Well Ed,

You said that you believed the account of Romans 7 was Paul AFTER his salvation.

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So you are saying that AFTER Paul's salvation: "sin that dwelleth in me." "evil is present with me."

Who was this sin or evil that dwelt with and was present with Paul.

Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

What is that but sin controlling Paul?

His flesh tainted by sin. But if Paul crucifies the flesh and follows after the spirit the flesh even though it is still present is not controlling Paul. Should Paul let his guard down the flesh will rear its ugly head and once again Paul must crucify it and let his spirit be in control. You are a big believer in backslidding how do you think that happens unless the flesh gets into control?

[Justaned]

Are you saying once we are saved we are free of all temptation?

That we don't slip and have regrets?

That we never miss the mark and walk in perfection?

No, in fact if you check what I wrote you will see I said the opposite.

But to the question at hand -- The liberty, lack of condemnation, and new-found life in the Spirit of Romans 8 is a total 180 from the life Paul describes himself experiencing in Romans 7. There is no getting around that. No Christian needs to live under the cloud of "I am carnal, sold under sin" and the resulting condemnation. No Bible-believer, walking according to the Spirit (as all those "in Christ" will be, according to Paul) will ever need to say "how to perform that which is good I find not".
I am in complete agreement with Dake that in chapter 7 we have a picture of a soul held captive by sin and not that of a redeemed soul. The Christian is, by definition, no longer held captive by sin and Satan because of God, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1.13).

Are you saying we never struggle against the flesh and the lusts of the flesh, the lusts of the eyes and the pride of life? We are not slave to it any longer but flesh is constantly trying to gain control in us. That is why we must crucify the flesh, to hold it captive to our spirit.

Why else would James writing to fellow Christians say? James 1:14-15 (NKJV)
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

When we are saved our spirit is reborn but our flesh is the same flesh we had at the first birth. That flesh is tainted with sin, it desires sin. That is why Paul always talks of the conflict between flesh and spirit. That conflict will remain with man until man receives his new body in the resurrection.

[bibleman]

His flesh tainted by sin. But if Paul crucifies the flesh and follows after the spirit the flesh even though it is still present is not controlling Paul. Should Paul let his guard down the flesh will rear its ugly head and once again Paul must crucify it and let his spirit be in control. You are a big believer in backslidding how do you think that happens unless the flesh gets into control?

Well Ed,

According to you he must have let his guard down!

Romans 7:14 ...I am carnal, sold under sin.

[Justaned]

His flesh tainted by sin. But if Paul crucifies the flesh and follows after the spirit the flesh even though it is still present is not controlling Paul. Should Paul let his guard down the flesh will rear its ugly head and once again Paul must crucify it and let his spirit be in control. You are a big believer in backslidding how do you think that happens unless the flesh gets into control?

Well Ed,

According to you he must have let his guard down!

Romans 7:14 ...I am carnal, sold under sin.

If that be true doesn't it suggest being in a fight. Where else is having one's guard up so important?
Don't you have to keep your guard up? Or is your flesh so perfected it never brings you thoughts of anger, vengeance, over indulgence, sluggishness? You never have to push your tongue against your cheek, or wish you hadn't said that? In your day to day life you never have to seek God's forgiveness?

Paul was detailing, explaining the battle between flesh and spirit. Before being reborn Paul's spirit had a spiritual disease almost to the point of death. So when Paul before he was saved did not feel condemnation, did not feel hopelessness, did not feel a need for repent. But once the Holy Spirit quicken Paul's spirit drawing him into salvation sudden Paul saw what he was free of and had to fight against to prevent it from taking hold of his life again. That is when Paul realized the hopeless state he had been in and unless he would return he had to resist, fight against, and yes even repent of when his guard was let down.