Dake Bible Discussion BoardRomans 7:14-25

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
Rocky

Romans 7:14-25

Post by Rocky »

Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by Justaned »

I would post my opinion but...
I will post this much,
For perhaps as long as the church has known this text, interpreters have disagreed as to whether the person described is a Christian or a non-Christian. Whole movements have arisen to promote one of those views or the other. One side maintains that the person is too much in bondage to sin to be a believer, whereas the other side maintains that the person has too much love for the things of God and too much hatred of sin to be an unbeliever.



User avatar
Ironman
Fast the Chosen Fast of God... Then Shalt Thou Be Like a Spring of Water, Whose Waters Fail Not
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by Ironman »

G-Day Rocky.

I have posted on these scriptures on this board before. You wrote;
"I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway."
Same goes for me mate.

But, now, I'm different, I have changed. In what way have I changed? I now care about what I do. After learning about Jesus, what He did for us, for me personally, after accepting Jesus, being baptized, receiving a measure of the Holy Spirit, I still occasionally fall into sin,

BUT NOW I CARE VERY MUCH! I have broken the trust Jesus had in me. I keep breaking the promise I had made with Jesus and the Father that if my sins are forgiven, I will sin no more. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

So where do I stand now? Well, I immediately repent, I ask God to forgive my weaknesses in the Name of Jesus.

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Rocky

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by Rocky »

Justaned wrote:I would post my opinion but...
I will post this much,
For perhaps as long as the church has known this text, interpreters have disagreed as to whether the person described is a Christian or a non-Christian. Whole movements have arisen to promote one of those views or the other. One side maintains that the person is too much in bondage to sin to be a believer, whereas the other side maintains that the person has too much love for the things of God and too much hatred of sin to be an unbeliever.
Ed I think you should post your opinion and your insight. And I don't understand what you are trying to say here.. What my inquiry is, is what is Paul talking about in these verses, is it before or after salvation?
Last edited by Rocky on Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Rocky

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by Rocky »

Ironman wrote:G-Day Rocky.

I have posted on these scriptures on this board before. You wrote;
"I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway."
Same goes for me mate.

But, now, I'm different, I have changed. In what way have I changed? I now care about what I do. After learning about Jesus, what He did for us, for me personally, after accepting Jesus, being baptized, receiving a measure of the Holy Spirit, I still occasionally fall into sin,

BUT NOW I CARE VERY MUCH! I have broken the trust Jesus had in me. I keep breaking the promise I had made with Jesus and the Father that if my sins are forgiven, I will sin no more. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

So where do I stand now? Well, I immediately repent, I ask God to forgive my weaknesses in the Name of Jesus.

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
So you hold to the position that Paul is talking about it in the present tense? And not talking about himself as a unbeliever before salvation as some teach?



User avatar
Ironman
Fast the Chosen Fast of God... Then Shalt Thou Be Like a Spring of Water, Whose Waters Fail Not
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by Ironman »

"So you hold to the position that Paul is talking about it in the present tense? And not talking about himself as a unbeliever before salvation as some teach?"
I believe so. Paul is saying that sin is more powerful than the law and man who is a slave to sin. He does not approve of his slavery to sin, and what he wishes he would do he cannot do. He says, if he is forced to do what he does not want to do, then it is not him, but sin that enslaves him by its indwelling power.
he says he has a will, but it is so overpowered by the lusts of sin that he is helpless. he says, his passion is stronger than his reason. His will, his reason and understanding and his conscience are on God's side and he consents to God's will and law, but his slave master, sin, will not consent for him to serve God or His law. These thought of Pauls were constantly on his mind because he never truly obeyed the law. No man can fully obey the old testament laws. Paul was freed from these thoughts during or after his three days of blindness. In his enlightened state of mind after the three days of blindness, hence his statement, "O wretched man that I am."


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by bibleman »

Rocky wrote:Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.
Hey Rocky

I am going to agree with Dake here.

Here is why:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


This is clearly a man that needs Jesus and needs deliverance.

The answer is found in verse 25... Jesus will deliver the wretched man from his sins.

So if this is the answer as is stated...

Could we possible say that Paul knew the answer but did not take advantage of the answer?

I think not.

Here is Dake's notes on this verse.
a [O wretched man that I am!] This is not a picture of a redeemed soul, but of a captive of sin.
Every statement in this chapter proves that this was Paul's experience while bound by sin under the law and before he was freed from the law of sin and death, as in Rom. 8:1-4.
His testimony indicates deliverance was after the three days of blindness at Damascus (Acts 9:17-18). The experience must have been during these three days for he had lived in all good conscience before this (Acts 23:1; Gal. 1:13-14; Php. 3:6). In the new enlightened state of these three days he saw that he had not really kept the law, saw that he was a helpless slave to sin and could not obey it as it should be kept. Hence, his conclusion of wretchedness.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 7".


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by Justaned »

Rocky wrote:
Justaned wrote:I would post my opinion but...
I will post this much,
For perhaps as long as the church has known this text, interpreters have disagreed as to whether the person described is a Christian or a non-Christian. Whole movements have arisen to promote one of those views or the other. One side maintains that the person is too much in bondage to sin to be a believer, whereas the other side maintains that the person has too much love for the things of God and too much hatred of sin to be an unbeliever.
Ed I think you should post your opinion and your insight. And I don't understand what you are trying to say here.. What my inquiry is, is what is Paul talking about in these verses, is it before or after salvation?

Roger got it.



Rocky

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by Rocky »

bibleman wrote:
Rocky wrote:Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.
Hey Rocky

I am going to agree with Dake here.

Here is why:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


This is clearly a man that needs Jesus and needs deliverance.

The answer is found in verse 25... Jesus will deliver the wretched man from his sins.

So if this is the answer as is stated...

Could we possible say that Paul knew the answer but did not take advantage of the answer?

I think not.

Here is Dake's notes on this verse.
a [O wretched man that I am!] This is not a picture of a redeemed soul, but of a captive of sin.
Every statement in this chapter proves that this was Paul's experience while bound by sin under the law and before he was freed from the law of sin and death, as in Rom. 8:1-4.
His testimony indicates deliverance was after the three days of blindness at Damascus (Acts 9:17-18). The experience must have been during these three days for he had lived in all good conscience before this (Acts 23:1; Gal. 1:13-14; Php. 3:6). In the new enlightened state of these three days he saw that he had not really kept the law, saw that he was a helpless slave to sin and could not obey it as it should be kept. Hence, his conclusion of wretchedness.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 7".
Hi Leon, I am not saying I completely disagree with Dake, and I am open to the fact I could be wrong in the way I interpret these verses. Rarely do I entertain the idea that Dake is off, and not saying this is the case here. However if this was a past tense issue with the apostle Paul why is the language and the way it is written in the present tense. I mean to me the grammatical meaning is present tense. Notice Paul says "I do" and "I hate" not "I did" and "hated" Even look at the language of the 25th verse it says "oh the wretched man that I am" as opposed to "the wretched man that I was." And yes it could be a description of being held captive in sin, but then why is it spoken of in a present tense? Now I know that Not all languages grammaticalise tense. But Koine Greek does have grammatical tense.



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Romans 7:14-25

Post by bibleman »

Rocky wrote:
bibleman wrote:
Rocky wrote:Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.
Hey Rocky

I am going to agree with Dake here.

Here is why:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


This is clearly a man that needs Jesus and needs deliverance.

The answer is found in verse 25... Jesus will deliver the wretched man from his sins.

So if this is the answer as is stated...

Could we possible say that Paul knew the answer but did not take advantage of the answer?

I think not.

Here is Dake's notes on this verse.
a [O wretched man that I am!] This is not a picture of a redeemed soul, but of a captive of sin.
Every statement in this chapter proves that this was Paul's experience while bound by sin under the law and before he was freed from the law of sin and death, as in Rom. 8:1-4.
His testimony indicates deliverance was after the three days of blindness at Damascus (Acts 9:17-18). The experience must have been during these three days for he had lived in all good conscience before this (Acts 23:1; Gal. 1:13-14; Php. 3:6). In the new enlightened state of these three days he saw that he had not really kept the law, saw that he was a helpless slave to sin and could not obey it as it should be kept. Hence, his conclusion of wretchedness.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 7".
Hi Leon, I am not saying I completely disagree with Dake, and I am open to the fact I could be wrong in the way I interpret these verses. Rarely do I entertain the idea that Dake is off, and not saying this is the case here. However if this was a past tense issue with the apostle Paul why is the language and the way it is written in the present tense. I mean to me the grammatical meaning is present tense. Notice Paul says "I do" and "I hate" not "I did" and "hated" Even look at the language of the 25th verse it says "oh the wretched man that I am" as opposed to "the wretched man that I was." And yes it could be a description of being held captive in sin, but then why is it spoken of in a present tense? Now I know that Not all languages grammaticalise tense. But Koine Greek does have grammatical tense.
Hi Rocky,

Lets' look at this man Paul describes:

Romans 7:14 I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not,
17 sin dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. I myself serve with the flesh the law of sin.

Ask yourself a question...

Does the above sound like a Born again child of God?
Does it sound like the HEAD of the known church world of his day?

If so salvation has NO power does it?

Do you think Paul was and "is" at the time of writing 1 Timothy 1:15 a SINNER?

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

So it is simply Paul telling a story "in the present tense" of his life before salvation. And if not... the Paul was a defeated devil oppressed, no victory, no good sinner who could not find the victory to control his flesh!


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

Post Reply