Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Romans 7:14-25

[tomas555]

Guys, You've just stopped too early. Ignore the chapter heading and continue to the next verse. Paul is right, if we allow our body to do what it likes to do, we will see only sin as a result of carnal temptation. But if we walk by a spirit, not by flesh, we can do it. Yes I know some trashy manuscripts leave out the part with walking in the spirit and flesh but it's anyway few lines away again so the point is clear.

We in our bodies are slaves to sin, nobody can save us from our bodies of death, except we get into Christ by being born again and there our spirit is renewed and we must submit all the fleshy and soulish things under ou New man's rule and there we can win. That's why Paul speaks of sin dwelling in his members.

Those who misuse this as an excuse for Christian's sinful actions are wrong. Those who say this is a man before conversion cannot be correct because born again Christian is still able to sin. I humbly came to this conclusion after many times reading these passage. Beforehand I was convicted it is about people not being born again, but look at born again Corinthian church being deep in the sin and at a same time operating in the wonderful gifts of spiritual when gathered.

[Rom 8:1, 4 KJV] 1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, [who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.] ... 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[Rocky]

I would post my opinion but...
I will post this much,
For perhaps as long as the church has known this text, interpreters have disagreed as to whether the person described is a Christian or a non-Christian. Whole movements have arisen to promote one of those views or the other. One side maintains that the person is too much in bondage to sin to be a believer, whereas the other side maintains that the person has too much love for the things of God and too much hatred of sin to be an unbeliever.

Ed I think you should post your opinion and your insight. And I don't understand what you are trying to say here.. What my inquiry is, is what is Paul talking about in these verses, is it before or after salvation?

Roger got it.

Well good I am glad somebody did. Maybe Roger can explain it to me since you seem to be above explaining it to us lower life forms Its just that what you wrote seems obscured and vague kind of like the Lordship salvation theology.

[Rocky]

Hi Rocky,

Lets' look at this man Paul describes:

Romans 7:14 I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not,
17 sin dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. I myself serve with the flesh the law of sin.

Ask yourself a question...

Does the above sound like a Born again child of God?
Does it sound like the HEAD of the known church world of his day?

If so salvation has NO power does it?

Do you think Paul was and "is" at the time of writing 1 Timothy 1:15 a SINNER?

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

So it is simply Paul telling a story "in the present tense" of his life before salvation. And if not... the Paul was a defeated devil oppressed, no victory, no good sinner who could not find the victory to control his flesh!

I agree for the most part, And yes salvation has Powers to justify the ungodly through faith by grace. But my analytical mind still keeps working lol. Maybe I am just nit picking. But here I changed it with grammatical tenses. So then should it have not read like this?:

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I was unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I did. For what use to want to do I did not do, but what I hated I did.
16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the law was good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin that was living in me.
18 For I knew that good itself did not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I had the desire to do what was good, but I could carry it out.
19 For I did not do the good I wanted to do, but the evil I did not wanted to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I did what I did not want to do, it was is no longer I who did it, but it was sin living in me that did it.
21 So I found this law at work: Although I wanted to do good, evil is was right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delighted in God’s law;
23 but I saw another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin that was working within me.
24 What a wretched man I was! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?(Grammatical Rocky Translation or the GRT)

But it does not it read like this:

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?(NASB)
Do you kind of see what I am saying above in the NASB translation I have underlined the grammatical tenses that to me shows it is present tense and not a past experience. But of course brother I could be wrong..

[bibleman]

Hi Rocky,

Lets' look at this man Paul describes:

Romans 7:14 I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not,
17 sin dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. I myself serve with the flesh the law of sin.

Ask yourself a question...

Does the above sound like a Born again child of God?
Does it sound like the HEAD of the known church world of his day?

If so salvation has NO power does it?

Do you think Paul was and "is" at the time of writing 1 Timothy 1:15 a SINNER?

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

So it is simply Paul telling a story "in the present tense" of his life before salvation. And if not... the Paul was a defeated devil oppressed, no victory, no good sinner who could not find the victory to control his flesh!

I agree for the most part, maybe I am just nit picking. But here I changed it with grammatical tenses. So then should it have not read like this?:

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I was unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15 I do not understand what I did. For what use to want to do I did not do, but what I hated I did.
16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the law was good.
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.
18 For I knew that good itself did not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I had the desire to do what is good, but I could carry it out.
19 For I did not do the good I want to do, but the evil I did not want to do—this I keep on doing.
20 Now if I did what I did not want to do, it was is no longer I who did it, but it was sin living in me that did it.
21 So I found this law at work: Although I wanted to do good, evil is was right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delighted in God’s law;
23 but I saw another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin that was working within me.
24 What a wretched man I was! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?(Gremical Rocky Translation or the GRT)

But it does not it read like this:

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?(NASB)
Do you kind of see what I am saying above it the NASB translation I have underlined the grammatical tenses that to me shows it is present tense and not a past experience. But of course brother I could be wrong..

Hi Rocky,

Yes I see what you are saying but I do not see the point. When you read literature you see that all the time.

But to believe it the way you saying then here is what you have: Paul was and IS a defeated devil oppressed, no victory, no good sinner who could not find the victory to control his flesh! And believe it or not this rebellious sinner was placed in charge of the church! (smile)

Does that sound like someone who would lay down their life for the Gospel? Or do you think he was "cussing out" the Romans that killed him? making his last bet on the horses just in case he lived? while at the same time promising at least 3 women that he would be married to them in the Mormon after life? I mean after all this is how people who are fleshly live! (another even bigger smile)

[Grandfather]

Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.

I will stick my neck out and say that Paul is writing in the present tense. He clearly says "I do" not "I did". I also look at vs 18 and 22 as additional support. A sinner doesn't realize that within the flesh there is no good thing. Go talk to any unsaved person and they will say there is truly good within them. Also how can an unsaved person "delight in the law of God after the inward man"? An unsaved man is not "born again" and has no inward man that would delight in God.

I believe this passage is one of the great paradoxes of the scripture and should be meditated on regularly. To say this was "pre-saved" ignores the struggle of sin.

[Rocky]

Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.

I will stick my neck out and say that Paul is writing in the present tense. He clearly says "I do" not "I did". I also look at vs 18 and 22 as additional support. A sinner doesn't realize that within the flesh there is no good thing. Go talk to any unsaved person and they will say there is truly good within them. Also how can an unsaved person "delight in the law of God after the inward man"? An unsaved man is not "born again" and has no inward man that would delight in God.

I believe this passage is one of the great paradoxes of the scripture and should be meditated on regularly. To say this was "pre-saved" ignores the struggle of sin.

Hi Grandfather Thank you for replying. Right, when I was an unbeliever I did not struggle with sin because I did not care what I did was sin or not. My leaning is towards your take on this as well, how ever I am open to Dakes interpretation. But like you and myself have pointed out it does seem the language tense of theses verses are in the present tense. I don't know one believer that is perfect and has perfect behavior. Before salvation I cared not how I acted or if what I did was wrong, I did it any way. Now I care and want to do good but at times I find some times I am unable to good all of the time and I am still in need of a Savior. This kind of reminds me of a song by DC Talk called I want to be in the light. It says:

"What's going on inside of me?
I despise my own behavior
This only serves to confirm my suspicions
That I'm still a man in need of a Savior "

This is what these Verses that Paul wrote mean to me..
This is what Paul is talking about to me.
Here is the DC Talk song.
[video][/video]

[Justaned]

Perhaps someone should look into the meaning of Antinomianism.

[Rocky]

.Perhaps someone should look into the meaning of Antinomianism.

Nice stab. But who is pushing that here? Care to explain yourself? I am well aware of this theology and I do not believe it to be a biblical doctrine.

[branham1965]

its exactly as he wrote it.no matter who doesnt like it.present tense.
he is talking about his sin nature that all possess.the ones who say they dont are the biggest offenders.

Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.

[bibleman]

Hi everyone,

So according to some Paul knew the answer to his sinful state,.... BUT never took advantage of it!

So then is there any hope for any of us?

Are we all doomed to be as Paul:

14 carnal, sold under sin.
15 what I hate, that do I.
16 I do that which I would not,
17 sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing
19 the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 evil is present with me.
23 But I see another law in my members, ...bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am!
25 I myself serve ...flesh the law of sin.

It is a real shame that salvation and the blood of Jesus cannot deliver us from such a sinful life!

Do you guys know of any other religion that might offer us hope since Christianity does not?