Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Who is in control?

[Justaned]

I have in countless other threads, you just say you don't believe that is what is means, so it would be useless for me to do it. Because you do not believe in backsliding anyway. If I give you the prodical son you say that isn't what that means if I give you the example of the man in the Corinthian church you say, how do we know it is the same person. If I give you anything else you will say thats old testament. So yeah I think that about sums it up There I did the discussion for us

Show me something that doesn't require special interpretation. Show me that scripture that says real Christians backslide and God expect them to so he provided a third born again, a fourth born again, a fifth born again and sixth born again experience for all Christians that refuse to make Jesus their Lord.

Yet you keep answering with nonsensical answers.
You still haven't shown me that scripture yet.

[Rocky]

Ed like I have stated I have given you scriptures in the past concerning this, you just explain them away. Just read and study this in the bible study the man at Corinth study the prodical son, study Israel in the old testament, put the whole bible together instead building a theology around a couple of scriptures. You claim that this doctrine is false because the word Backslid does not appear in the new testament. Ok, well the word trinity and Rapture are not found in the bible does that make these teachings any less true? No it does not, those terms came about as a result of putting the whole bible together. Some like you use a couple of scripture to try to discredit those truths like you are doing with this truth.

[Justaned]

Ed like I have stated I have given you scriptures in the past concerning this, you just explain them away. Just read and study this in the bible study the man at Corinth study the prodical son, study Israel in the old testament, put the whole bible together instead building a theology around a couple of scriptures. You claim that this doctrine is false because the word Backslid does not appear in the new testament. Ok, well the word trinity and Rapture are not found in the bible does that make these teachings any less true? No it does not, those terms came about as a result of putting the whole bible together. Some like you use a couple of scripture to try to discredit those truths like you are doing with this truth.

Rocky
You have given me examples that you have interpreted as dealing with Christians. Yet none of them are Christians.
You have an unsaved prodigal son, nation of Israel, some identified man in Corinth that none of us know his status before or after the narrative of his sin. And you tell me I need to read scripture and I will see.

Yet if I look at the apostles after the cross I see them being lead of the Spirit and never going into willful and deliberate sin. I see Paul calling out apparent Christians and saying have nothing more to do with them. In fact not one story in all of the New Testament tells us of a person known to be saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and having Jesus within him and sinning. But we see one admonishment after another telling us to be holy, to make Jesus Lord of our life, to died in the flesh and live in Christ. If you died in the flesh where does you free will fit into that? You know the free will you say we have so we can sin. Where is it if we died to flesh and raised in Christ.

Holiness without which no man will see God. That is required. That can only be obtained if we surrender all, our free will and everything to Jesus. Unless we do that we are flesh trying to obtain holiness enough to please God and scripture clearely says that is impossible. It is not US it is CHRIST that LIVES in US. Unless Christ lives in us directing our lives it is still us is it not?

[Rocky]

Ed like I have stated I have given you scriptures in the past concerning this, you just explain them away. Just read and study this in the bible study the man at Corinth study the prodical son, study Israel in the old testament, put the whole bible together instead building a theology around a couple of scriptures. You claim that this doctrine is false because the word Backslid does not appear in the new testament. Ok, well the word trinity and Rapture are not found in the bible does that make these teachings any less true? No it does not, those terms came about as a result of putting the whole bible together. Some like you use a couple of scripture to try to discredit those truths like you are doing with this truth.

Rocky
You have given me examples that you have interpreted as dealing with Christians. Yet none of them are Christians.
You have an unsaved prodigal son, nation of Israel, some identified man in Corinth that none of us know his status before or after the narrative of his sin. And you tell me I need to read scripture and I will see.

Yet if I look at the apostles after the cross I see them being lead of the Spirit and never going into willful and deliberate sin. I see Paul calling out apparent Christians and saying have nothing more to do with them. In fact not one story in all of the New Testament tells us of a person known to be saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and having Jesus within him and sinning. But we see one admonishment after another telling us to be holy, to make Jesus Lord of our life, to died in the flesh and live in Christ. If you died in the flesh where does you free will fit into that? You know the free will you say we have so we can sin. Where is it if we died to flesh and raised in Christ.

Holiness without which no man will see God. That is required. That can only be obtained if we surrender all, our free will and everything to Jesus. Unless we do that we are flesh trying to obtain holiness enough to please God and scripture clearely says that is impossible. It is not US it is CHRIST that LIVES in US. Unless Christ lives in us directing our lives it is still us is it not?

Ed how does one surrender his free will to Jesus? And how much is surrendered before salvation is obtained? What does saved by Grace through faith really mean? Is there any scripture in the bible that says we are saved by surrendering our free will and everything to Jesus?
What about someone on their death bed when they cant do this because they only have a day or to live or so?

[Justaned]

Ed like I have stated I have given you scriptures in the past concerning this, you just explain them away. Just read and study this in the bible study the man at Corinth study the prodical son, study Israel in the old testament, put the whole bible together instead building a theology around a couple of scriptures. You claim that this doctrine is false because the word Backslid does not appear in the new testament. Ok, well the word trinity and Rapture are not found in the bible does that make these teachings any less true? No it does not, those terms came about as a result of putting the whole bible together. Some like you use a couple of scripture to try to discredit those truths like you are doing with this truth.

Rocky
You have given me examples that you have interpreted as dealing with Christians. Yet none of them are Christians.
You have an unsaved prodigal son, nation of Israel, some identified man in Corinth that none of us know his status before or after the narrative of his sin. And you tell me I need to read scripture and I will see.

Yet if I look at the apostles after the cross I see them being lead of the Spirit and never going into willful and deliberate sin. I see Paul calling out apparent Christians and saying have nothing more to do with them. In fact not one story in all of the New Testament tells us of a person known to be saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and having Jesus within him and sinning. But we see one admonishment after another telling us to be holy, to make Jesus Lord of our life, to died in the flesh and live in Christ. If you died in the flesh where does you free will fit into that? You know the free will you say we have so we can sin. Where is it if we died to flesh and raised in Christ.

Holiness without which no man will see God. That is required. That can only be obtained if we surrender all, our free will and everything to Jesus. Unless we do that we are flesh trying to obtain holiness enough to please God and scripture clearely says that is impossible. It is not US it is CHRIST that LIVES in US. Unless Christ lives in us directing our lives it is still us is it not?

Ed how does one surrender his free will to Jesus? And how much is surrendered before salvation is obtained? What does saved by Grace through faith really mean? Is there any scripture in the bible that says we are saved by surrendering our free will and everything to Jesus?
What about someone on their death bed when they cant do this because they only have a day or to live or so?

There is more to salvation that being saved. It requires us to become pleasing to God. Holiness if you will.
Too many stop at the point of being saved and never more on. That is easy believism. That is being neither hot nor cold and I believe no one can stay there. Jesus said we can not serve two masters.

When we are first saved our master whether we want to admit it or not is still the world. We don't know enough about Jesus to make him master in any way except lip service. However if we are truly saved I believe we will start an automatic process of seeking God. Seeking God's will in our life. We will be forming a relationship with Christ, we will learn to yield ourselves to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

It isn't force upon us it must be sought after but if you don't seek after it I really don't believe you are saved for eternity.
Salvation is free but it requires our life. We have to willingly give our lives up to live as God would have us. As we make Jesus Lord of our lives this yielding becomes easier and easier. Soon we don't think of ourselves as anything less than God's servant. A most esteemed title.

We seek to please God and depend on Jesus help to do that, for we have wisely learned we can not do it without Jesus.
This life become less and less important and our eternal life becomes increasing more important but we don't lose sight of the fact we have a mission. And that mission is our commission to share Jesus with the world.

Without experiencing a real relationship with Christ this will all seem foreign and perhaps unbelievable, but look at the early Christians could they have possibly endured what they did in their own strength? Can any of us imagine sings praises to God as our lower body is being consumed by fire? Try to place yourself as one of those Christians being used to light the gardens of Nero. Knowing your wife, you children are experiencing the same horror you are. Think of the pain coursing through you body in the natural as you feet and legs are consumed by flames. No human could endure that with screaming in pain. Yet we know they sang, sang out so long and strong that Nero was enraged and demanded they be silenced. That requires more than any man can muster in and of himself. It had to be Christ in them. They had to be so yielded to Christ that even their pain was in submission to Jesus. Think about it.

[Justaned]

"If we think the main mission of the church is to improve life in Adam and add a little moral strength to this fading evil age, we have not yet understood the radical condition for which Christ is such a radical solution." --Michael Horton

[bibleman]

"If we think the main mission of the church is to improve life in Adam and add a little moral strength to this fading evil age, we have not yet understood the radical condition for which Christ is such a radical solution." --Michael Horton

He's a Calvinist!

If he is that ignorant to believe in Calvinism... then why would we even care about any of his other man made opinions?

[Justaned]

"If we think the main mission of the church is to improve life in Adam and add a little moral strength to this fading evil age, we have not yet understood the radical condition for which Christ is such a radical solution." --Michael Horton

He's a Calvinist!

If he is that ignorant to believe in Calvinism... then why would we even care about any of his other man made opinions?

Some how I knew that would be someone on this forum's response.
Never mind that what is said is true.
By the way you forgot the words "dirty calvinist"

[Rocky]

Ed like I have stated I have given you scriptures in the past concerning this, you just explain them away. Just read and study this in the bible study the man at Corinth study the prodical son, study Israel in the old testament, put the whole bible together instead building a theology around a couple of scriptures. You claim that this doctrine is false because the word Backslid does not appear in the new testament. Ok, well the word trinity and Rapture are not found in the bible does that make these teachings any less true? No it does not, those terms came about as a result of putting the whole bible together. Some like you use a couple of scripture to try to discredit those truths like you are doing with this truth.

Rocky
You have given me examples that you have interpreted as dealing with Christians. Yet none of them are Christians.
You have an unsaved prodigal son, nation of Israel, some identified man in Corinth that none of us know his status before or after the narrative of his sin. And you tell me I need to read scripture and I will see.

Yet if I look at the apostles after the cross I see them being lead of the Spirit and never going into willful and deliberate sin. I see Paul calling out apparent Christians and saying have nothing more to do with them. In fact not one story in all of the New Testament tells us of a person known to be saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and having Jesus within him and sinning. But we see one admonishment after another telling us to be holy, to make Jesus Lord of our life, to died in the flesh and live in Christ. If you died in the flesh where does you free will fit into that? You know the free will you say we have so we can sin. Where is it if we died to flesh and raised in Christ.

Holiness without which no man will see God. That is required. That can only be obtained if we surrender all, our free will and everything to Jesus. Unless we do that we are flesh trying to obtain holiness enough to please God and scripture clearely says that is impossible. It is not US it is CHRIST that LIVES in US. Unless Christ lives in us directing our lives it is still us is it not?

Ed how does one surrender his free will to Jesus? And how much is surrendered before salvation is obtained? What does saved by Grace through faith really mean? Is there any scripture in the bible that says we are saved by surrendering our free will and everything to Jesus?
What about someone on their death bed when they cant do this because they only have a day or to live or so?

There is more to salvation that being saved. It requires us to become pleasing to God. Holiness if you will.
Too many stop at the point of being saved and never more on. That is easy believism. That is being neither hot nor cold and I believe no one can stay there. Jesus said we can not serve two masters.

When we are first saved our master whether we want to admit it or not is still the world. We don't know enough about Jesus to make him master in any way except lip service. However if we are truly saved I believe we will start an automatic process of seeking God. Seeking God's will in our life. We will be forming a relationship with Christ, we will learn to yield ourselves to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

It isn't force upon us it must be sought after but if you don't seek after it I really don't believe you are saved for eternity.
Salvation is free but it requires our life. We have to willingly give our lives up to live as God would have us. As we make Jesus Lord of our lives this yielding becomes easier and easier. Soon we don't think of ourselves as anything less than God's servant. A most esteemed title.

We seek to please God and depend on Jesus help to do that, for we have wisely learned we can not do it without Jesus.
This life become less and less important and our eternal life becomes increasing more important but we don't lose sight of the fact we have a mission. And that mission is our commission to share Jesus with the world.

Without experiencing a real relationship with Christ this will all seem foreign and perhaps unbelievable, but look at the early Christians could they have possibly endured what they did in their own strength? Can any of us imagine sings praises to God as our lower body is being consumed by fire? Try to place yourself as one of those Christians being used to light the gardens of Nero. Knowing your wife, you children are experiencing the same horror you are. Think of the pain coursing through you body in the natural as you feet and legs are consumed by flames. No human could endure that with screaming in pain. Yet we know they sang, sang out so long and strong that Nero was enraged and demanded they be silenced. That requires more than any man can muster in and of himself. It had to be Christ in them. They had to be so yielded to Christ that even their pain was in submission to Jesus. Think about it.

Ed did you know the the term "easy believism" was coined by Calvinist and lordship salvation adherents? Did you know that Jesus taught easy believism for initial salvation? Did you know that Jesus never taught such a doctrine as holiness beginning after justification? Never did Jesus tell someone whom he forgave and cleansed from sin that he needed another work of grace to complete the work.

[Justaned]

Ed like I have stated I have given you scriptures in the past concerning this, you just explain them away. Just read and study this in the bible study the man at Corinth study the prodical son, study Israel in the old testament, put the whole bible together instead building a theology around a couple of scriptures. You claim that this doctrine is false because the word Backslid does not appear in the new testament. Ok, well the word trinity and Rapture are not found in the bible does that make these teachings any less true? No it does not, those terms came about as a result of putting the whole bible together. Some like you use a couple of scripture to try to discredit those truths like you are doing with this truth.

Rocky
You have given me examples that you have interpreted as dealing with Christians. Yet none of them are Christians.
You have an unsaved prodigal son, nation of Israel, some identified man in Corinth that none of us know his status before or after the narrative of his sin. And you tell me I need to read scripture and I will see.

Yet if I look at the apostles after the cross I see them being lead of the Spirit and never going into willful and deliberate sin. I see Paul calling out apparent Christians and saying have nothing more to do with them. In fact not one story in all of the New Testament tells us of a person known to be saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and having Jesus within him and sinning. But we see one admonishment after another telling us to be holy, to make Jesus Lord of our life, to died in the flesh and live in Christ. If you died in the flesh where does you free will fit into that? You know the free will you say we have so we can sin. Where is it if we died to flesh and raised in Christ.

Holiness without which no man will see God. That is required. That can only be obtained if we surrender all, our free will and everything to Jesus. Unless we do that we are flesh trying to obtain holiness enough to please God and scripture clearely says that is impossible. It is not US it is CHRIST that LIVES in US. Unless Christ lives in us directing our lives it is still us is it not?

Ed how does one surrender his free will to Jesus? And how much is surrendered before salvation is obtained? What does saved by Grace through faith really mean? Is there any scripture in the bible that says we are saved by surrendering our free will and everything to Jesus?
What about someone on their death bed when they cant do this because they only have a day or to live or so?

There is more to salvation that being saved. It requires us to become pleasing to God. Holiness if you will.
Too many stop at the point of being saved and never more on. That is easy believism. That is being neither hot nor cold and I believe no one can stay there. Jesus said we can not serve two masters.

When we are first saved our master whether we want to admit it or not is still the world. We don't know enough about Jesus to make him master in any way except lip service. However if we are truly saved I believe we will start an automatic process of seeking God. Seeking God's will in our life. We will be forming a relationship with Christ, we will learn to yield ourselves to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

It isn't force upon us it must be sought after but if you don't seek after it I really don't believe you are saved for eternity.
Salvation is free but it requires our life. We have to willingly give our lives up to live as God would have us. As we make Jesus Lord of our lives this yielding becomes easier and easier. Soon we don't think of ourselves as anything less than God's servant. A most esteemed title.

We seek to please God and depend on Jesus help to do that, for we have wisely learned we can not do it without Jesus.
This life become less and less important and our eternal life becomes increasing more important but we don't lose sight of the fact we have a mission. And that mission is our commission to share Jesus with the world.

Without experiencing a real relationship with Christ this will all seem foreign and perhaps unbelievable, but look at the early Christians could they have possibly endured what they did in their own strength? Can any of us imagine sings praises to God as our lower body is being consumed by fire? Try to place yourself as one of those Christians being used to light the gardens of Nero. Knowing your wife, you children are experiencing the same horror you are. Think of the pain coursing through you body in the natural as you feet and legs are consumed by flames. No human could endure that with screaming in pain. Yet we know they sang, sang out so long and strong that Nero was enraged and demanded they be silenced. That requires more than any man can muster in and of himself. It had to be Christ in them. They had to be so yielded to Christ that even their pain was in submission to Jesus. Think about it.

Ed did you know the the term "easy believism" was coined by Calvinist and lordship salvation adherents? Did you know that Jesus taught easy believism for initial salvation? Did you know that Jesus never taught such a doctrine as holiness beginning after justification? Never did Jesus tell someone whom he forgave and cleansed from sin that he needed another work of grace to complete the work.

Actually Jesus did make more of a demand than most people think. The problem is our understanding of the word believe and the Greek word Pisteuo which is translated believe. To most people believing is the intellectual acceptance of something or agreement with. However the Greek word Pisteuo means to become dependent, it is even more than staking you life on it, it is basing your life on it.
Example I want to mountain climb and need a rope.
I go to the store and buy a rope rated at 5000LBS I walk out of the stored believing it will hold but that is not pIsteuo belief.
I take this rope to the top of a mountain tie it to a rock and throw the rest over the cliff. I tug on it and I believe it will hold me. But that is not pisteuo belief
I then put on a harass and connect myself to the rope I lean back and I'm convinced it will hold me. That is not pisteuo belief.
It is not until I go to edge of the cliff lean back and make my life dependent on that rope that I have Pisteuo believed.

To believe in Christ we must have made ourselves our very life dependent on Jesus Christ. To do that requires more than simply believing and standing up, walking away saying we are saved. It requires a change in us, I requires us to be born again not of flesh but of spirit, to yield ourselves to Christ and assume a servants role in our lives. It requires both a love for and committed obedience to Christ and that process must start at salvation or nothing has happened at all.