Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Strange signs!

[Watchman2013]

Rocky
Please don't think I was miminizing or dismissing your story or your experience. I do appreciate you sharing it and seriously I'm trying to reconcile what you are saying to what I believe scripture is saying.

I can accept I'm not interpreting scripture correctly but I need someone to do more that say your wrong or my experience proves you wrong. I need to see where in both these passages I failed to grasp the correct meaning of what is being said.

As I said in the other thread. I fail to understand how a God created NEW BEING would intentional set about to sin.

Let me ask you this could you right now go out and really sin? I don't mean to slip and mess up but rather say to yourself (assumeing you are married) okay today I going out to find someone to commit adultery with and then actually do it.

I know I can't.

So I wonder how does a person get from saved to that point. If you can shed any light on it I would love to hear it.

Again I'm not saying you can't sin or that you are sinless. We all stumble and fall. I saying you intentionally set out to sin.

Hello Justaned, and Rocky!

God Bless You Both, and All That Is Yours...

Okay, I'm not Rocky, but I couldn't let this quote, and my answer to it, go away... Thank-you, Both.

We appear to agree, but for semantics... I don't think any of the three of us could go out, decide that we're going to commit sin, of any size or degree- for sin is sin, and is contrary to God's Will... I believe that we three are "sold-out to God." I don't question that, nor do I disagree with either of your positions.

Justaned, you said, "I think what is key here is allegiance and felt." I would amend that to read, "consecrated," rather than "allegiance." Why? Because consecration is something that one does to God, and to no other entity, whereas allegiance does not connote the strength and depth to which one is dedicated. Allegiance can be "lip service," whereas consecration is as God said for us to be, and do- "Be ye Holy, as I AM Holy."

It is entirely possible, using your position, Justaned, to see where one might not be "saved," or know God's Love, Mercy, Grace, and Kindness, in the Salvation process, if one does not act, or live, as one "saved." You make a good case in that, which, however, does not preclude Rocky from being a Child of God, as well as a Citizen of Heaven.

At some point in time, we all come to a point where we face God, stop taking Him for granted, concede all that we've ever been, are now, or ever will be, to Him, where He comes first, always, and we are, by choice, never again the same... Given enough time, we all grow-up. Only God knows that point of demarcation, where we get "serious" with God, and truly become the sheep of His Pasture.

I cannot, in clear conscience, nor in my innermost being, doubt Rocky, and the transformation he underwent, to become restored to God. In studying The Word, and by The Holy Spirit, I believe Rocky does not "just" believe what he is saying, but that God's Precious Holy Spirit is present in his life, and He bears witness of that change to one consecrated unto God, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

In the last 96 hours, I've fought the demons representing the Mormon Cult, in a neighbor and friend, a much respected local man, for his very soul... In being obedient to what God would have me say, I thereby came under attack. I'm calling the "experience," The Long Dark Night of the Soul... Satan marshaled his forces, and until the wee hours of this day, I was as unsure of myself, as ever I did not think it was possible to be... But God is Faithful, for He said, "I will never leave you, nor forsake you..." He hasn't, and He never will...

I have never known such loneliness, such desolation. I was crying out to God, "Lord, please speak to me, and let me know that you are there..." It was as if I were confined in a bell jar, and nothing got in, or out. I seemed cut-off from the outside world, and that God was not answering my cries, or my prayers. I continued to practice His Presence, to talk to Him, as an individual, best friend, confidant, mentor, and Faithful Companion... At times, I was inclined to study certain passages of The Scriptures. At other times, though I could not hear Him, as in times past, I knew He was somewhere near, though the "feeling" of being cut-off, was oppressively there, immovable...

I studied His Word, and did everything I could to get rid of any hindrance to getting near Him. I went back over my life, looking for sins I may have knowingly, or unknowingly, committed. Sins of commission and sins of omission, I considered. Had I already confessed something, as well as repenting of that sin, but still have sinned, and would not therefore receive forgiveness from Him? I was in agony, oppressed from all sides, relentlessly, Satan attacked.

You know the drill- "You're not worthy!" "You're destined for the Lake of Fire, because you're a sinner!" "God doesn't love you- He never did!" At such times, "it's tough to remember you're there to drain the swamp, when you're up to your fanny in alligators..." Imagine being an airplane pilot, and not being able to see the horizon- disaster has claimed many such... I was in that position. Saved, but not knowing where I was, where I was going, and not knowing when I'd get there... It was a Hell of indecision and emptiness... I can see how those less prepared, could actually take their own lives... Praise God! For His Word, and His Faithfulness... Truly, His Grace is sufficient for me...

In relying upon The Scriptures, and upon the leading of The Holy Spirit of God, I was able to see things from His perspective, and weather the storm... I can just say that God's Love, Mercy, Grace, and His Everlasting Kindnesses, as shown through His Word, and illuminated by His Spirit, once again gave me hope, based upon The Word of God- nothing of Man...

I never lost faith in God, nor my belief in Him. He is ever faithful. All the Blessings of God are mine, not because of me, but due to His Love, Mercy, Grace, and infinite Kindness. I know that some here believe that there are no "second chances" beyond a certain, possibly arbitrary, point, but that's what I've seen, in myself, and others. God has, and does, make a way...

I believe that God looks upon the heart of every person. He is faithful, as He will not go against His Word, nor will He not go to extraordinary lengths, to save those that were lost, for remember the one that was lost, where He left the ninety and nine, to go after the one, most needy...

I make no pretenses- coming out of The Long Dark Night of The Soul, and into the Light and Life of Christ Jesus, is a magnificent, new beginning, for it reaffirms that which I knew subjectively. It was, truly, a spiritual rebirth. Nay, it was once, and for all, a commitment, a mature consecration unto God The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, that I reaffirmed... It was the definitive point where there were no more games, lip service, or half measures. I am His, and He is mine.

Consecration unto God. When He says, "Be Ye Holy, as I AM Holy," it is the real deal. I've heard what The Spirit has said, when outside, in the wind that whirls and rustles about; seen in the shooting stars across the night heavens testify of His Magnificence; and watched Life be reaffirmed in the blossoming of the desert, after a rainstorm... God IS God. Holy, Pure, True- His attributes are unending, and we'll have the honor of praising and worshiping Him Forever and Ever, Amen...

I hope I've made sense to you, for I have God's Peace, and He has given me a serenity, an acceptance, that whatever He wants, that's what I want too... He's called all of us to Holiness, just as He's called, and equipped us to do what He wants. The Gifts of God, are without repentance. So too, are those talents, skills, and strengths that He has endowed us with... Justaned, you may well be the best teacher I've yet encountered. Your gentleness reminds me of Lester Sumrall, as well as his thoroughness, objectivity, and his honesty. Most refreshing...

Rocky, you are compassion personified. Like the T-shirt says, you've "been there, done that, had the T-shirt, and have the scars to prove it." God's light shines through you, enabling you to reach the lost- the needy, the hurt, and the ones cast-off, or ignored by others, because of the "knowledge" of others... You have experienced life, and God has heard your cries, and has honored your hunger to share Jesus with a dead and dying world...

I will do what God tells me to do. I'm not a silver tongued, snake oil salesman. I'm as subtle as the blunt end of an axe. I've never been popular, nor will I ever be, this side of Heaven. I'll go right on passing on what He tells me, and let the chips fall where they may... Like I've said, I'm a simple man... Where God points me, I will go, attacking, defending, and doing whatever I can, to make Satan, and the perfumed ponces that infest pulpits and platforms, miserable. If they are God's People, I'll defend. If they're there to rule in their own names, God's got a pitbull, with my name on it's collar... In other words, He's letting me be myself, under His direction... Glorious...

Gentlemen, I'll side you, anywhere, anytime, for if God Be For Us, Who Can Be Against Us?

Maranatha

Watchman2013

[Justaned]

Rocky
Please don't think I was miminizing or dismissing your story or your experience. I do appreciate you sharing it and seriously I'm trying to reconcile what you are saying to what I believe scripture is saying.

I can accept I'm not interpreting scripture correctly but I need someone to do more that say your wrong or my experience proves you wrong. I need to see where in both these passages I failed to grasp the correct meaning of what is being said.

As I said in the other thread. I fail to understand how a God created NEW BEING would intentional set about to sin.

Let me ask you this could you right now go out and really sin? I don't mean to slip and mess up but rather say to yourself (assumeing you are married) okay today I going out to find someone to commit adultery with and then actually do it.

I know I can't.

So I wonder how does a person get from saved to that point. If you can shed any light on it I would love to hear it.

Again I'm not saying you can't sin or that you are sinless. We all stumble and fall. I saying you intentionally set out to sin.

Hello Justaned, and Rocky!

God Bless You Both, and All That Is Yours...

Okay, I'm not Rocky, but I couldn't let this quote, and my answer to it, go away... Thank-you, Both.

We appear to agree, but for semantics... I don't think any of the three of us could go out, decide that we're going to commit sin, of any size or degree- for sin is sin, and is contrary to God's Will... I believe that we three are "sold-out to God." I don't question that, nor do I disagree with either of your positions.

Justaned, you said, "I think what is key here is allegiance and felt." I would amend that to read, "consecrated," rather than "allegiance." Why? Because consecration is something that one does to God, and to no other entity, whereas allegiance does not connote the strength and depth to which one is dedicated. Allegiance can be "lip service," whereas consecration is as God said for us to be, and do- "Be ye Holy, as I AM Holy."

It is entirely possible, using your position, Justaned, to see where one might not be "saved," or know God's Love, Mercy, Grace, and Kindness, in the Salvation process, if one does not act, or live, as one "saved." You make a good case in that, which, however, does not preclude Rocky from being a Child of God, as well as a Citizen of Heaven.

At some point in time, we all come to a point where we face God, stop taking Him for granted, concede all that we've ever been, are now, or ever will be, to Him, where He comes first, always, and we are, by choice, never again the same... Given enough time, we all grow-up. Only God knows that point of demarcation, where we get "serious" with God, and truly become the sheep of His Pasture.

I cannot, in clear conscience, nor in my innermost being, doubt Rocky, and the transformation he underwent, to become restored to God. In studying The Word, and by The Holy Spirit, I believe Rocky does not "just" believe what he is saying, but that God's Precious Holy Spirit is present in his life, and He bears witness of that change to one consecrated unto God, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

In the last 96 hours, I've fought the demons representing the Mormon Cult, in a neighbor and friend, a much respected local man, for his very soul... In being obedient to what God would have me say, I thereby came under attack. I'm calling the "experience," The Long Dark Night of the Soul... Satan marshaled his forces, and until the wee hours of this day, I was as unsure of myself, as ever I did not think it was possible to be... But God is Faithful, for He said, "I will never leave you, nor forsake you..." He hasn't, and He never will...

I have never known such loneliness, such desolation. I was crying out to God, "Lord, please speak to me, and let me know that you are there..." It was as if I were confined in a bell jar, and nothing got in, or out. I seemed cut-off from the outside world, and that God was not answering my cries, or my prayers. I continued to practice His Presence, to talk to Him, as an individual, best friend, confidant, mentor, and Faithful Companion... At times, I was inclined to study certain passages of The Scriptures. At other times, though I could not hear Him, as in times past, I knew He was somewhere near, though the "feeling" of being cut-off, was oppressively there, immovable...

I studied His Word, and did everything I could to get rid of any hindrance to getting near Him. I went back over my life, looking for sins I may have knowingly, or unknowingly, committed. Sins of commission and sins of omission, I considered. Had I already confessed something, as well as repenting of that sin, but still have sinned, and would not therefore receive forgiveness from Him? I was in agony, oppressed from all sides, relentlessly, Satan attacked.

You know the drill- "You're not worthy!" "You're destined for the Lake of Fire, because you're a sinner!" "God doesn't love you- He never did!" At such times, "it's tough to remember you're there to drain the swamp, when you're up to your fanny in alligators..." Imagine being an airplane pilot, and not being able to see the horizon- disaster has claimed many such... I was in that position. Saved, but not knowing where I was, where I was going, and not knowing when I'd get there... It was a Hell of indecision and emptiness... I can see how those less prepared, could actually take their own lives... Praise God! For His Word, and His Faithfulness... Truly, His Grace is sufficient for me...

In relying upon The Scriptures, and upon the leading of The Holy Spirit of God, I was able to see things from His perspective, and weather the storm... I can just say that God's Love, Mercy, Grace, and His Everlasting Kindnesses, as shown through His Word, and illuminated by His Spirit, once again gave me hope, based upon The Word of God- nothing of Man...

I never lost faith in God, nor my belief in Him. He is ever faithful. All the Blessings of God are mine, not because of me, but due to His Love, Mercy, Grace, and infinite Kindness. I know that some here believe that there are no "second chances" beyond a certain, possibly arbitrary, point, but that's what I've seen, in myself, and others. God has, and does, make a way...

I believe that God looks upon the heart of every person. He is faithful, as He will not go against His Word, nor will He not go to extraordinary lengths, to save those that were lost, for remember the one that was lost, where He left the ninety and nine, to go after the one, most needy...

I make no pretenses- coming out of The Long Dark Night of The Soul, and into the Light and Life of Christ Jesus, is a magnificent, new beginning, for it reaffirms that which I knew subjectively. It was, truly, a spiritual rebirth. Nay, it was once, and for all, a commitment, a mature consecration unto God The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, that I reaffirmed... It was the definitive point where there were no more games, lip service, or half measures. I am His, and He is mine.

Consecration unto God. When He says, "Be Ye Holy, as I AM Holy," it is the real deal. I've heard what The Spirit has said, when outside, in the wind that whirls and rustles about; seen in the shooting stars across the night heavens testify of His Magnificence; and watched Life be reaffirmed in the blossoming of the desert, after a rainstorm... God IS God. Holy, Pure, True- His attributes are unending, and we'll have the honor of praising and worshiping Him Forever and Ever, Amen...

I hope I've made sense to you, for I have God's Peace, and He has given me a serenity, an acceptance, that whatever He wants, that's what I want too... He's called all of us to Holiness, just as He's called, and equipped us to do what He wants. The Gifts of God, are without repentance. So too, are those talents, skills, and strengths that He has endowed us with... Justaned, you may well be the best teacher I've yet encountered. Your gentleness reminds me of Lester Sumrall, as well as his thoroughness, objectivity, and his honesty. Most refreshing...

Rocky, you are compassion personified. Like the T-shirt says, you've "been there, done that, had the T-shirt, and have the scars to prove it." God's light shines through you, enabling you to reach the lost- the needy, the hurt, and the ones cast-off, or ignored by others, because of the "knowledge" of others... You have experienced life, and God has heard your cries, and has honored your hunger to share Jesus with a dead and dying world...

I will do what God tells me to do. I'm not a silver tongued, snake oil salesman. I'm as subtle as the blunt end of an axe. I've never been popular, nor will I ever be, this side of Heaven. I'll go right on passing on what He tells me, and let the chips fall where they may... Like I've said, I'm a simple man... Where God points me, I will go, attacking, defending, and doing whatever I can, to make Satan, and the perfumed ponces that infest pulpits and platforms, miserable. If they are God's People, I'll defend. If they're there to rule in their own names, God's got a pitbull, with my name on it's collar... In other words, He's letting me be myself, under His direction... Glorious...

Gentlemen, I'll side you, anywhere, anytime, for if God Be For Us, Who Can Be Against Us?

Maranatha

Watchman2013

Watchma2013

I totally agree consecration is the better word. Let me also be very clear I never questioned Rocky's present state, for like you I believe he is truly saved.

I guess what I was questioning was the state he was in when he intentionally, by his own testimony, entered into sin. That is the state I would like to be able to examine.

I know in my case while I considered myself saved, and knowing now what true salvation is like I know I was not truly saved. I hadn't felt how good the word of God was as your amplified Bible states.

I can't say I wasn't saved because I did believe in Jesus, I did trust in HIm alone for my salvation, I surely didn't want to go to hell. BUT he was not Lord of me, I retained independance, I was the master and commander of my destiny.

I think many many are this way today. They believe in Jesus, they may feel they trust HIm for their salavtion, they certianly don't want to go to hell, but they never made Jesus LORD in their life. They have never consecrated themselves to HIM.

Today I can't imagine entering into intentional sin. Oh sure sinful ideas pass through my mind but I never entertain them so that the stay or I act upon them.

Again I'm not saying I live sinless either. We all sin and fall short. But when we are in Christ Jesus we resist intentional sin and ask for forgiveness of the unintentional sins of the day.

Watchman2013 I will keep you and the situation with your friend and neighbor in prayer. Be blesses brother and know you are never alone there is a cloud of witnesses watching your fight for this man's soul.

[Watchman2013]

Thank-You, Justaned...

No, I never did think you questioned Rocky's Salvation. "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

Oh, how I love God, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, and The Word of God... I know, I know, I do sound like a broken record... What more perfect people and things to love? Belonging to God, in Three Persons, gives one a sense of humbled satisfaction and joy, for it means that one has done at least one thing right, and that's truly receiving Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior...

I had to laugh at your use of "Master and Commander," for as third generation Navy, I feel unqualified to skipper one of God's tiniest canoes... I, of and by myself, am nothing, but with God, all things are possible... I no longer seek to do things "my way." I'm tired of making poor decisions, or ones that are not God's choice. I'm at a juncture in my life, that I'm waiting on Him, knowing that what He decides, will be what's best for me, and all concerned...

He's the Captain of my soul... I know that whatever happens, He rules and reigns, and His decisions and actions are, like Him, perfect... It's nice to know that it's His hand on the tiller, and not mine, for He has the proper charts, and knows how everything will end up...

God has never failed me. Never. He knows what I need, before I do, and then He provides it. He finds things before I know that they're missing, or misplaced by me... It doesn't make any difference to Him, whether it be big, or little, He Is There, for me...

I wake-up each morning, as I let out my pups, I give Him Thanks and Praise, for the new, beautiful day that He's given us... He is the God of Second Chances, and the God of Fine Details, for as a former professional photographer, I marvel at His Handiwork... We are, indeed, Blessed of God, in all things...

Thank-You for your prayers, and your kind words, Justaned. They are balm to my soul. Winning souls is a passion for me, though I had not really considered, outside of the visceral, the war that Satan is willing to wage, to try and keep his followers... Ah, well, as long as I'm here in the neighborhood, I'll contend for his soul, and earnestly defend The Faith...

Take care, My Friends, for I believe that we're nearing The Last Stretch, and Victory is The Lord's, and ours...

Maranatha

Watchman2013

[Justaned]

The point I making is at some point and none of us know that point God will withdraw His Holy Spirit from us. Scripture attests to that.

When it happens salvation will be unattainable, not because it is denied but because is never again sought.

The fact that Rocky sought salvation proves his heart was not so hardened to to the state that salvation would never be realized.

[Rocky]

I don't know my heart was pretty hard. Are you insinuating that you can live like the devil but as long as God is still dealing with you you are still eternally secure? Like you are just kind of lost or halfway lost? I have been studying several commentaries on these verses, That you keep using, everything from the early church fathers, to Dake's, to John Calvin's and everything in between. Your take is closer to John calvin's or a twisted version of it, and a dash of John Macarthur, then the early church fathers.. You may not be a calvinist but there is definitely some flirtation here.. Another interesting fact I found in this study that there were no controversies over these scriptures until John Calvin.
Christian since the beginning have always believed 2 facts concerning this: 1- yes a true Christian can fall away and 2- if they do they can be restored. The understanding and the mess that has been perpetuated over this did not come about until Calvin.

[Justaned]

Christian since the beginning have always believed 2 facts concerning this: 1- yes a true Christian can fall away and 2- if they do they can be restored. The understanding and the mess that has been perpetuated over this did not come about until Calvin.

Rocky
Since you are in and doing a study Please explain to us how the early church fathers dealt with these two passages.

In answer to your question in the first paragraph. I have two hurdles
First hurdle I really don't believe a fully committed genuine Christian will intentionally decide to sin. Not if he truly loves God.

Hurdle number two is I believe a sinner's heart can be so hardened that the Holly Spirit will withdraw from him and he can never be saved simply because he will never seek salvation.


Now with hurdle one I do believe many have a genuine desire for salvation, they totally believe in Jesus, that he died, was resurrected and died for their sins, that they need a savior. The problem is they do all of this but refuse to allow Jesus be Lord of their lives. Something else be a it loved one, fleshly desire, whatever will take precedence over Jesus if they are forced to choose.

I see these two passages as clearly worded. I don't see nor has anyone given an acceptable alternate reading to either.

The both clearly say that if a saved person willfully sins he has trampled the blood of Jesus that first saved him into the ground and there remains nothing left by which he can be saved. My question is how to we hold this as truth yet believe a saved person can sin, lost his salvation and then regain it?

[Rocky]

Well first throw out you Calvinistic influences and study them. Its quite simple, you are confusing some one with a reprobate mind and sinner or backslider who can be brought to place were they can be saved. Now this goes for unbelievers and Christian who go back into sin. All things are possible with God, but with man it is impossible to bring a Christina who has went back in to a life of sin, back to repentance, They must lay again the foundation for repentance. That is what most early church commentaries say on this, And what Paul is talking about. And concerning Calvinism, I know you will say "I am not a Calvinist", oh yes, you have some of their ideas. Or thats is my take on it. Please answer these question so I know exactly your beliefs
1 If a Christian quits praying goes back into sin, Sins that damn the soul as described in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, are the lost or not.
2- Is a Christian capable of such sins?
3- If a former Christian indulgee in these thing are they lost or still saved?
Now please don't say depends on what you definition of a Christian is or I promise I will go kill a squirrel..

[Justaned]

Well first throw out you Calvinistic influences and study them. Its quite simple, you are confusing some one with a reprobate mind and sinner or backslider who can be brought to place were they can be saved. Now this goes for unbelievers and Christian who go back into sin. All things are possible with God, but with man it is impossible to bring a Christina who has went back in to a life of sin back to repentance, They must lay again the foundation for repentance. That is what most early church commentaries say on this. And concerning Calvinism, I know you will say "I am not a Calvinist", oh yes, you have some of their ideas. Or thats is my take on it. Please answer these question so I know exactly your beliefs
1 If a Christian quits praying goes back into sin, Sins that damn the soul as described in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, are the lost or not.

Not that I feel I have to justify myself to you but I will answer your questions.
1. On this one I don't believe a born again Christian will do that. If they are a new creature created by God after their salvation I don't see it as even possible. However if it were possible I would say they are sinners. Are they still under the blood of Jesus? I would have to say if a past or present sin can be under the blood I see no reason a future sin can't also.

2- Is a Christian capable of such sins?

2. As you can readily see I didn't read ahead, my bad. But in simple words I don't think so.

3- If a former Christian indulgee in these thing are they lost or still saved?
Now please don't say depends on what you definition of a Christian is or I promise I will go kill a squirrel..

3. I hate squirrels so I have to say it depends on what your definition of a Christian is.

Seriously Jesus died for out sins long before we were born. So he died for future and well as past and present. Do we now define those as only past, present and future up to our present and then say now he did not die for them until they become our past?

I hate these discussions where we ask can a Christian do thus and such and be saved? Scripture says we are called to holiness therefore this question should not even be on the table. Either we are striving for holiness as all Christians are called to or we are not. Not striving and not a Christian.

If I see a guy coming out of a strip joint falling down drunk I have one thing to say to him, "You need to get saved." I would not even engage in the debate of whether he was once saved or not. From this I would say he needs to get saved. It is that easy.

Likewise when I see a guy walk up to a lonely old woman and say, "My Mrs. Johnson don't you look beautiful today." I don't go up to him and say ?you are in danger of hells fire and you need to get saved."

You still didn't say what you found the early church fathers had to say about Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrew 10:26

As far as what MacArthus says he is OSAS so I would say this can't happen to a Christian. But no matter what he says Hebrews 6 and 10 are definitely talking about a Christian. So I don't buy MacArthur or Calvins answer on this.

[Rocky]

Oh thank you for answering. Though you may not be a 5 point Calvinist, I think You are definitely influenced by John Calvin's teachings. Would you agree to that?

[Justaned]

Oh thank you for answering. Though you may not be a 5 point Calvinist, I think You are definitely influenced by John Calvin's teachings. Would you agree to that?

I think Calvin was just as right and just as wrong as Ariminius his opponent.
I try to take the most scriptural of all Christian theology and cling to the truth of them and discard what is in opposition to the truth of scripture.

So yesI have some theology that Calvin hit upon. As they say a pig finds an acorn once in awhile so why doubt the Calvin hit upone the truth once in awhile.

What is important nothing I hold to differs from scripture. It may differ from the teaching of man but no scripture that I'm aware contradicts my position.

That is why I'm so interested in your position. I'm not stupid enough to believe I can never make a mistake, you seem certain I am in error on this and I'm trying to find out how you read the two passages that makes what I said an error.