Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ John 14:12...What was the "works" of Jesus?

[Justaned]

I thought I spoke about what christians are seeing and doing...where the majority are chasing the signs...but the point still remains, the works Jesus spoke of was not His work on the cross...it was the miracles.

And those other passages you gave are at the very least out of context. Especially Matthew 24:24...you read that in context, Jesus is speaking about a VERY specific point in time. And most likely, the Church will not even be here when Matthew 24:24 takes place.

EDIT to add:

Why do you want to blame WoF ministers for the reason that many christians do not read their Bibles. If it is Kenneth Copeland's fault that christians do not read their Bibles, then it is your fault, too, as a pastor.

As for Matthew 24:24 you don't believe there are false prophets doing signs and wonders today? Go to a Mormon church and watch the healings that take place there.

Go step further look in the church today at people that claim the healing is of God but advertize THEIR "HEALING" ministry. It is either God's or theirs and if they are making money off of it I would say it is more theirs than Gods.

I don't blame Copeland for people not reading the Bible I blame the people themselves as caring so little about the most important thing in their lives that they won't read the Bible. When a person does not read his or her Bible no one absolutely no one can be blamed except for themselves.

[Justaned]

Let me add I do not fault Word of Faith for teaching or believing in Healing.
I don't fault Word of Faith for teaching faith or the need for faith.

I believe in both of those things with every fiber of my body.

What I fault Word of Faith for is is their defining doctrine that teaches if you do this God must to that and if it doesn't happen it wasn't because of anything other than you not having enough faith or having unconfessed sin in your life.


Now don't try to change any of this or add anything to it. I stands on it owns as I now place it before God and man.

[cpbeller]

so, let me get this straight...you are taking Matthew 24:24 out of context, taking something that was a prophecy for a specific point in time, and making it fit for now, and not only that, but building a doctrine (miracles are bad) out of it?

Your Mark 6 passage is also ripped out of context. And, you assume too much. If you were to read the verses surrounding the passage...Jesus just got done saying that those that believe will do greater works than He did. There is a description of what He had just done...then, just a few verses away, we read that the disciples healed many (not a few, as what was described by what Jesus was able to do in Nazareth), and cast out many devils from ppl. There is the comparison...and the Bible will interpret the Bible. Keep reading, and the Bible will show what the Bible meant.

And John 4:48? Why would Jesus tell the guy that miracles are bad, then do one? Why would Jesus condemn His own works?

And what about my question? How many have you saved recently, Ed? Jesus said what we will do greater works than He did, and you say that the works he was talking about was salvation (the act of restoring broken relationship between God and Man)...so, how many have you saved? Is there one person who could tell God that He did not save them, but rather, Ed did. Because if you are correct in your explanation, then there must be someone, somewhere. Because Jesus said we will do greater works (greater salvation) than He did...

[cpbeller]

In regards to your view of WoF preachers and what they teach? I cannot speak for all of them, but the ones I have listened to, do not say really, what you are attributing to them (I know, you did not name names...so who knows who you are actually talking about). But I know that the ones I have listened to have said you start with the Word of God. You find the promise in the Word, that is our covenant we have with God. Jesus said that whatsoever we ask in His Name, He will do it. That is the covenant...

Are there WoF ministers out there that abuse that message? Sure...but there are also teachers that abuse the salvation message. So...where do we go from here?

That goes for the topic at hand...

Miracles, signs and wonders are for sure abused in the Church. Salvation is abused in the church. Do we get rid of salvation? Preachign is abused in the Church...do we throw away preaching? What about teaching? What about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Speaking in tongues? Praise and worship can be abused...so maybe we should not sing in church? I have seen altar calls be abused...we should get rid of those, too, right?

Why do you have such a hang up over miracles being done? Especially when it comes to healing? Jesus never had problems with healing, or any miracles. That is not to say that many times, christians chase them...but that does not mean that we should cast them out. The ppl need to be taught. Again, I touched on that in my original post. But perhaps you could not get past miracles and Kenneth Copeland.

The fact is, the Bible clearly does not condemn miracles, anymore than the Bible condemns preaching or teaching or salvation itself...

[Justaned]

so, let me get this straight...you are taking Matthew 24:24 out of context, taking something that was a prophecy for a specific point in time, and making it fit for now, and not only that, but building a doctrine (miracles are bad) out of it?

Your Mark 6 passage is also ripped out of context. And, you assume too much. If you were to read the verses surrounding the passage...Jesus just got done saying that those that believe will do greater works than He did. There is a description of what He had just done...then, just a few verses away, we read that the disciples healed many (not a few, as what was described by what Jesus was able to do in Nazareth), and cast out many devils from ppl. There is the comparison...and the Bible will interpret the Bible. Keep reading, and the Bible will show what the Bible meant.

And John 4:48? Why would Jesus tell the guy that miracles are bad, then do one? Why would Jesus condemn His own works?

And what about my question? How many have you saved recently, Ed? Jesus said what we will do greater works than He did, and you say that the works he was talking about was salvation (the act of restoring broken relationship between God and Man)...so, how many have you saved? Is there one person who could tell God that He did not save them, but rather, Ed did. Because if you are correct in your explanation, then there must be someone, somewhere. Because Jesus said we will do greater works (greater salvation) than He did...

Chris
I never said sin and wonders in of themselves were bad. No NEVER if you think that is what I'm saying then let me clarify. Sins and Wonders are not bad.

That said we are warned often in scripture that Satan is an imitator, a liar and a deceiver. As such he will use Sins and Wonders to bring glory to man and off of God.

Look at Pharoah's two magicians they were able to match Moses wonders turning water into blood and staffs into snakes.

Today Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientist and yes even some false teachers in the church are using signs and wonders in an attempt to validate their teachings.

Talk to anyone that has seen the demonic power of Satanism, of Voodoo and Santeria and the likes.

What I'm saying is if signs and wonders are being used to draw people into listening to a salvation message about Jesus then praise God. But if it is being used to forward a ministry, even if the ministry tries to legitimize itself by sharing credit with God it is wrong.

Now if you have a problem with that I'm sorry. But don't add to my words, or say I saying signs and wonders are wrong or anything of that kind.

[Justaned]

In regards to your view of WoF preachers and what they teach? I cannot speak for all of them, but the ones I have listened to, do not say really, what you are attributing to them (I know, you did not name names...so who knows who you are actually talking about). But I know that the ones I have listened to have said you start with the Word of God. You find the promise in the Word, that is our covenant we have with God. Jesus said that whatsoever we ask in His Name, He will do it. That is the covenant...

Are there WoF ministers out there that abuse that message? Sure...but there are also teachers that abuse the salvation message. So...where do we go from here?

That goes for the topic at hand...

Miracles, signs and wonders are for sure abused in the Church. Salvation is abused in the church. Do we get rid of salvation? Preachign is abused in the Church...do we throw away preaching? What about teaching? What about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Speaking in tongues? Praise and worship can be abused...so maybe we should not sing in church? I have seen altar calls be abused...we should get rid of those, too, right?

Why do you have such a hang up over miracles being done? Especially when it comes to healing? Jesus never had problems with healing, or any miracles. That is not to say that many times, christians chase them...but that does not mean that we should cast them out. The ppl need to be taught. Again, I touched on that in my original post. But perhaps you could not get past miracles and Kenneth Copeland.

The fact is, the Bible clearly does not condemn miracles, anymore than the Bible condemns preaching or teaching or salvation itself...

I said the defining doctrine of Word of Faith. If a man is not teaching the defining doctrine of Word of Faith than I don't have a problem with them.

Again if you have a problem with that I'm sorry but don't go adding to what said and don't substract from what I said. And most of all don't try to put words into my mouth.

I have the problem with the defining Doctrine of Word of Faith where they gave this formula that says if you do this God has to do this, and when it does not happen they then place the blame not on the falsehood of the concept but on the person, saying you didn't have enough faith or there is sin in your life.

[branham1965]

REVED
me being a self appointed authority on the Watchtower i assure you they think all miracles today are bad.
in Pastor Russell's day people were getting into "spiritism".he knew this was wrong.they took a vow every day to "stay clear of anything akin to spiritism knowing that no man can serve two masters"... if memory serves me.
he was a cessationist BUT when he heard of revivals breaking out in the earth .....the Welsh revival and others he had enough sense not to say it was of the devil!!!!!he told his flock all over the earth to wait and watch before they judged it.the same is true with glossolalia and healing .he did not come out in the Watchtower and condemn it.he called all these people brethren....its something isnt it???!!!!he had more sense and honor and integrity than many meatheads today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! +pieface

so you cant possibly have an ounce of validation that modern day JDUBS believe in miracles. +pieface
agape and pax to you

so, let me get this straight...you are taking Matthew 24:24 out of context, taking something that was a prophecy for a specific point in time, and making it fit for now, and not only that, but building a doctrine (miracles are bad) out of it?

Your Mark 6 passage is also ripped out of context. And, you assume too much. If you were to read the verses surrounding the passage...Jesus just got done saying that those that believe will do greater works than He did. There is a description of what He had just done...then, just a few verses away, we read that the disciples healed many (not a few, as what was described by what Jesus was able to do in Nazareth), and cast out many devils from ppl. There is the comparison...and the Bible will interpret the Bible. Keep reading, and the Bible will show what the Bible meant.

And John 4:48? Why would Jesus tell the guy that miracles are bad, then do one? Why would Jesus condemn His own works?

And what about my question? How many have you saved recently, Ed? Jesus said what we will do greater works than He did, and you say that the works he was talking about was salvation (the act of restoring broken relationship between God and Man)...so, how many have you saved? Is there one person who could tell God that He did not save them, but rather, Ed did. Because if you are correct in your explanation, then there must be someone, somewhere. Because Jesus said we will do greater works (greater salvation) than He did...

Chris
I never said sin and wonders in of themselves were bad. No NEVER if you think that is what I'm saying then let me clarify. Sins and Wonders are not bad.

That said we are warned often in scripture that Satan is an imitator, a liar and a deceiver. As such he will use Sins and Wonders to bring glory to man and off of God.

Look at Pharoah's two magicians they were able to match Moses wonders turning water into blood and staffs into snakes.

Today Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Christian Scientist and yes even some false teachers in the church are using signs and wonders in an attempt to validate their teachings.

Talk to anyone that has seen the demonic power of Satanism, of Voodoo and Santeria and the likes.

What I'm saying is if signs and wonders are being used to draw people into listening to a salvation message about Jesus then praise God. But if it is being used to forward a ministry, even if the ministry tries to legitimize itself by sharing credit with God it is wrong.

Now if you have a problem with that I'm sorry. But don't add to my words, or say I saying signs and wonders are wrong or anything of that kind.

[macca]

The very BASIC test of signs and wonders is::::::::

Jesus said "the Comforter will GLORIFY ME" if Jesus is not glorified front and center, forget it, its more than likely man centered and develish.

macca

[Justaned]

The very BASIC test of signs and wonders is::::::::

Jesus said "the Comforter will GLORIFY ME" if Jesus is not glorified front and center, forget it, its more than likely man centered and develish.

macca

Exactly Macca and with many ministries today Jesus isn't front and center it is the guy on the platform that is the focus.

[victoryword]

Warning: Cheap plug for my book

I deal with this exact subject in chapters 7 and 8 of my book, "MIracles are for Today"