Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ ANTI-DISPENSTIONALISTS

[Justaned]

That is a very complex question and one I tried to answer but I didn't like my answer. Let me try this.

Basically dispensationalism is doctrine or viewpoint of how God related to people down through the ages in scripture.

Grace and Works is a doctrine of viewpoint of what God requires of a New Testament believer.

Dispensationalism is usually referrenced when speaking of the End Times and along with Preterism, Historicism, and Spiritislic view.

The amount of works needed with grace can be combined in any combination with the above four views. So you can have dispensationalist that are very works oriented and others that are not. Same can be said of the other three.

Cults usually go to a very works based salavation since that seems to be the easiest for man to grasp. (man earned his salvation through his service to God)

[titus213]

Generally speaking, do the anti-dispensationalists (if that is a word) believe God saved by by faith in God alone since Adam and that faith without works is dead??

I would say that evangelical non-dispensationalists (who may or not be ANTI-dispensational) would generally believe that God saved by faith in the coming Redeemer from the time of Adam forward, and that faith without works is dead. In fact, one of their criticisms of traditional dispensationalism might well be its tendency to write off the faith which was manifested in obedience back in OT times as nothing more than Mosaic legalism. You can see that sort of attitude in the type of dispensationalism promoted by the "grace-only" groups, who even oppose what they call "Lordship salvation".

[Justaned]

I tend to disagree with Fatherfisher's answer for this reason. One of the biggest non dispensationalist groups is Calvinism and while they believe in salvation through faith they almost totally exclude the need for any works. In fact their battle cry is Sola Gratia or Grace Alone. They almost totally discount James' mention of faith without works is dead.

From what I understand their view of the salvation of Old Testaments saints is very similar to dispensationalist view of salvation of the OT saints in that the OT saint died looking for the Messiah and Jesus' preaching of the Good News in Hades or Abraham's bosom.

[titus213]

Is a common form of anti-dispensationalism come from folks who say O.T. Jews were, and today's Christians are saved the same way, ie., by faith in/ believing in/trusting in God, but without good works one is unlikely to be saved? Thanks for your help.

hi Dolph. Not sure if I understand the question, but speaking for myself yes, one reason I am not a dispensationalist is because the Bible teaches salvation is due to God's grace received through faith which is evidenced by works. And that this has been true for all sinners since Adam. At no period of history have sinners ever been saved by their works.

[brodave]

So I don't under stand? Why can't you be a dispensationalist and still believe you are saved by grace through faith. Dake list 1050 commands in the new testament. If you are saved by grace through faith why would you not desire to adhere to those precepts? I find no place in Dake's writings where He believed we are saved by works.

[titus213]

So I don't under stand? Why can't you be a dispensationalist and still believe you are saved by grace through faith. Dake list 1050 commands in the new testament. If you are saved by grace through faith why would you not desire to adhere to those precepts? I find no place in Dake's writings where He believed we are saved by works.

You're right, he didn't . . . but as I mentioned previously (in another thread) Dake's dispensationalism is VERY different from the standard dispensationalism of, let's say, Scofield or Ryrie or Walvoord. The standard dispensational position promotes the idea that there was a time (during the dispensation of Law) when people "exchanged grace for the Law" (as the Scofield Bible puts it) and were saved by keeping the Law, when (per Scofield again) obeying the law became the condition of salvation.

As I said in that thread, I have no problems with Dake's form of dispensationalism, but it does contradict some fundamental dispensational teachings of the traditional kind in several areas, including this area of how people were saved in the Old Testament.

[branham1965]

Reverent faith in God and trusting obedience to the Gospel are essential ."although He was a Son He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.and having been made perfect,He became to all who obey Him the source of eternal salvation." NASB 1977 see Hebrews 5:8-9.

In the Book of James the "faith only" error meets it Waterloo in the pages of the inspired epistle.if folks wont believe James...

All "faith only" amounts to is just more rotten, warped, tainted ......Calvinism.

Is a common form of anti-dispensationalism come from folks who say O.T. Jews were, and today's Christians are saved the same way, ie., by faith in/ believing in/trusting in God, but without good works one is unlikely to be saved? Thanks for your help.

hi Dolph. Not sure if I understand the question, but speaking for myself yes, one reason I am not a dispensationalist is because the Bible teaches salvation is due to God's grace received through faith which is evidenced by works. And that this has been true for all sinners since Adam. At no period of history have sinners ever been saved by their works.

[brodave]

They were saved by faith in God.The law was given to show sin.They were not saved by keeping the law.They were saved being obedient to God's provision of blood sacrifices.We are saved by receiving by faith God's provision of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[titus213]

They were saved by faith in God.The law was given to show sin.They were not saved by keeping the law.They were saved being obedient to God's provision of blood sacrifices.We are saved by receiving by faith God's provision of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Right on.

Of course, the Law was not only intended to show sin, but also to guide the believer in knowing what God's will was in various situations, as their "schoolmaster" to lead them to Christ. So we see phrases like "Oh, how I love thy law" all through the Psalms, expressing the heartfelt faith of the Old Testament saint. The point being that in traditional dispensationalism, the Law is viewed as something which the Israelites foolishly opted for in place of God's grace, something which they "rashly accepted" (Scofield's comment on Ex. 19.8). You won't find Dake making these kinds of comments about the situation.

[Justaned]

They were saved by faith in God.The law was given to show sin.They were not saved by keeping the law.They were saved being obedient to God's provision of blood sacrifices.We are saved by receiving by faith God's provision of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Right on.

Of course, the Law was not only intended to show sin, but also to guide the believer in knowing what God's will was in various situations, as their "schoolmaster" to lead them to Christ. So we see phrases like "Oh, how I love thy law" all through the Psalms, expressing the heartfelt faith of the Old Testament saint. The point being that in traditional dispensationalism, the Law is viewed as something which the Israelites foolishly opted for in place of God's grace, something which they "rashly accepted" (Scofield's comment on Ex. 19.8). You won't find Dake making these kinds of comments about the situation.

Fatherfisher
Could you give the source for your quote of Scofield in referrence to Exodus 19:8

Law is viewed as something which the Israelites foolishly opted for in place of God's grace, something which they "rashly accepted" (Scofield's comment on Ex. 19.8).

In Scofield's bible notes this is all that is mentioned.

Notes For Verse 8
[1] we will do

The Fifth Dispensation: Law. This dispensation extends from Sinai to Calvary--from Exodus to the Cross. The history of Israel in the wilderness and in the land is one long record of the violation of the law. The testing of the nation by law ended in the judgment of the Captivities, but the dispensation itself ended at the Cross.
(1) Man's state at the beginning Ex 19:1-4
(2) His responsibility Ex 19:5, 6; Rom 10:5
(3) His failure 2Ki 17:7-17, 19; Acts 2:22, 23
(4) The judgment 2Ki 17:1-6, 20; 2Ki 25:1-11; Luke 21:20-24

See, for the other six dispensations: INNOCENCE (See Note for Gen 1:28) CONSCIENCE (See Note for Gen 3:23) PROMISE (See Note for Gen 12:1) LAW (See Note for Ex 19:8) GRACE (See Note for John 1:17) KINGDOM (See Note for Eph 1:10)
C.I. Scofield, ed., The Holy Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments, WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 19".