Dake Bible Discussion BoardPurgatory

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Reuben
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Reuben »

Let's look at another site which is right at the source.

http://www.rosary-center.org/nconobl.htm#ind
FIFTEEN PROMISES OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN
TO CHRISTIANS WHO FAITHFULLY PRAY THE ROSARY

To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces.
Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some special grace.
The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.
The rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant divine mercies. It will draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.
Whoever recites my Rosary devoutly reflecting on the mysteries, shall never be overwhelmed by misfortune. He will not experience the anger of God nor will he perish by an unprovided death. The sinner will be converted; the just will persevere in grace and merit eternal life.
Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
Those who are faithful to recite my Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces and will share in the merits of the blessed.
I will deliver promptly from purgatory souls devoted to my Rosary.
True children of my Rosary will enjoy great glory in heaven.
What you shall ask through my Rosary you shall obtain.
To those who propagate my Rosary I promise aid in all their necessities.
I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Rosary Confraternity shall have as their intercessors, in life and in death, the entire celestial court.
Those who recite my Rosary faithfully are my beloved children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.
Devotion to my Rosary is a special sign of predestination.



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Justaned
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Justaned »

Reuben wrote:
Justaned wrote:
Reuben wrote:The Catholic catechism are not clarification of the Bible.They are an entire set of rules and regulations that are separate from the Bible. It is no different in principle then the Pharisees clinging to their Mishnah and Talmudic writings. Which was what Jesus really condemned. The Pharisees exalted them to equality and even beyond the laws of Moses. The Catholics do the exact same thing!
Jesus did not condemn the Mishnah or the Talmudic writings what he condemned was the attitude toward them.
They took the truth and applied with it no tolerance and got legalism
Some mixed tolerance without the truth and got liberalism
Jesus wanted truth with tolerance to have a balanced teaching.
That's not what Jesus said.

Matthew 15:1-9 (KJV)
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus specifically refers to the tradition and its teachings and the adherence to them. It was not an attitude problem concerning the traditions, it was incorporating these traditions and in doing so they unseated the authority of the Word.
Read verse 8 again it is attitude problem. They used loop holes to ignore the truth.



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Justaned
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Justaned »

Reuben wrote:Let's look at another site which is right at the source.

http://www.rosary-center.org/nconobl.htm#ind
FIFTEEN PROMISES OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN
TO CHRISTIANS WHO FAITHFULLY PRAY THE ROSARY

To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces.
Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some special grace.
The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.
The rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant divine mercies. It will draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.
Whoever recites my Rosary devoutly reflecting on the mysteries, shall never be overwhelmed by misfortune. He will not experience the anger of God nor will he perish by an unprovided death. The sinner will be converted; the just will persevere in grace and merit eternal life.
Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
Those who are faithful to recite my Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces and will share in the merits of the blessed.
I will deliver promptly from purgatory souls devoted to my Rosary.
True children of my Rosary will enjoy great glory in heaven.
What you shall ask through my Rosary you shall obtain.
To those who propagate my Rosary I promise aid in all their necessities.
I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Rosary Confraternity shall have as their intercessors, in life and in death, the entire celestial court.
Those who recite my Rosary faithfully are my beloved children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.
Devotion to my Rosary is a special sign of predestination.
You call them the center I thought Rome was the center. This site is a offshot that has an agenda just as many Protestant organizations do. Using them is like using the Christians for White America as a source for doctrine on Protestant views of race relations.



Reuben
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Reuben »

Justaned wrote:
Reuben wrote:
Justaned wrote:
Reuben wrote:The Catholic catechism are not clarification of the Bible.They are an entire set of rules and regulations that are separate from the Bible. It is no different in principle then the Pharisees clinging to their Mishnah and Talmudic writings. Which was what Jesus really condemned. The Pharisees exalted them to equality and even beyond the laws of Moses. The Catholics do the exact same thing!
Jesus did not condemn the Mishnah or the Talmudic writings what he condemned was the attitude toward them.
They took the truth and applied with it no tolerance and got legalism
Some mixed tolerance without the truth and got liberalism
Jesus wanted truth with tolerance to have a balanced teaching.
That's not what Jesus said.

Matthew 15:1-9 (KJV)
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus specifically refers to the tradition and its teachings and the adherence to them. It was not an attitude problem concerning the traditions, it was incorporating these traditions and in doing so they unseated the authority of the Word.
Read verse 8 again it is attitude problem. They used loop holes to ignore the truth.
Notes for Verse 8
Verse 8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, &c. -- By putting the commandments of men on a level with the divine requirements, their whole worship was rendered vain -- a principle of deep moment in the service of God. "For," it is added in Mr 7:8, "laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups; and many other such like things ye do." The drivelling nature of their multitudinous observances is here pointedly exposed, in contrast with the manly observance of "the commandment of God"; and when our Lord says, "Many other such like things ye do," it is implied that He had but given a specimen of the hideous treatment which the divine law received, and the grasping disposition which, under the mask of piety, was manifested by the ecclesiastics of that day.
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.



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branham1965
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Re: Purgatory

Post by branham1965 »

The Eastern Orthodox Churches which separated from the Western Papacy in 1051 AD ....they do not believe in Purgatory.



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branham1965
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Re: Purgatory

Post by branham1965 »

WHAT will do the most good??attacking Catholicism and badmouthing the Pope.

as a former Altar boy who comes from a Catholic family and Orthodox family...the first things people do is get defensive clam up or ...fight.

when Nicodemus went to Jesus by night.he wanted to get theological with the Lord.

the Lord ignored him hit the bullseye and said forget all that religious talk you need to be born again of water and the Spirit.you need to be born again!!!!

my Aunt just died.she told me we are born again in our baptisms as a baby.

theres no need to go ant further until you preach Jesus and salvation.

as i said before my grandparents were drawn by the Spirit to Ernest Angley,the PTL Club,the 700 Club because they did not badmouth Catholics.

i know a forum like this is the place to debate. but i think when as a theologian of the 19th century once said if people see their errors being demolished they often will panic ....if the truth :lol: is presented in all its beauty the errors will not only melt away but the errors will seem injurious and foolish.
he misled millions but that was his approach.in fact MANY EARLY PENTECOSTALS WERE SOUL SLEEPERS AND 2ND CHANCERS.FROM THIS MAN.



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Justaned
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Justaned »

Reuben wrote:
Justaned wrote:
Reuben wrote:
Justaned wrote:
Reuben wrote:The Catholic catechism are not clarification of the Bible.They are an entire set of rules and regulations that are separate from the Bible. It is no different in principle then the Pharisees clinging to their Mishnah and Talmudic writings. Which was what Jesus really condemned. The Pharisees exalted them to equality and even beyond the laws of Moses. The Catholics do the exact same thing!
Jesus did not condemn the Mishnah or the Talmudic writings what he condemned was the attitude toward them.
They took the truth and applied with it no tolerance and got legalism
Some mixed tolerance without the truth and got liberalism
Jesus wanted truth with tolerance to have a balanced teaching.
That's not what Jesus said.

Matthew 15:1-9 (KJV)
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus specifically refers to the tradition and its teachings and the adherence to them. It was not an attitude problem concerning the traditions, it was incorporating these traditions and in doing so they unseated the authority of the Word.
Read verse 8 again it is attitude problem. They used loop holes to ignore the truth.
Notes for Verse 8
Verse 8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, &c. -- By putting the commandments of men on a level with the divine requirements, their whole worship was rendered vain -- a principle of deep moment in the service of God. "For," it is added in Mr 7:8, "laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups; and many other such like things ye do." The drivelling nature of their multitudinous observances is here pointedly exposed, in contrast with the manly observance of "the commandment of God"; and when our Lord says, "Many other such like things ye do," it is implied that He had but given a specimen of the hideous treatment which the divine law received, and the grasping disposition which, under the mask of piety, was manifested by the ecclesiastics of that day.
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
Reubin
Let just say you have a tradition in your church that you serve communion the first Sunday of the month. Nothing wrong with that.

Let us say to insure it happens you make it a doctrine of your church. Again nothing really wrong with it but it is starting to get questionable.

Now for some reason you can't serve communion on the first Sunday but you preach on it and make sure everyone is aware of the significance of it. Your board loves and suggests that included in the doctrine is a statement that says we will always serve communion on the first Sunday of the month but if for some reason we aren't able to do that, the pastor will ensure that he preaches on communion making everyone aware of how very important it is. Again nothing really wrong.

Now as time passes communion becomes more and more of chore so instead of serving communion you start just preaching on it and telling everyone how important it is.

It wasn't the tradition or doctrine that was bad it was the attitude in you that looked for a loophole so that you didn't have to serve communion any more.

Take the example Jesus uses a Jewish son is to support his family but apparently for what ever reason and we don't really know the reason a provision was made that instead of the supporting his parents he could give the money to God instead. The process was called corban. Really nothing wrong with that we know really know of.

But what had happened everyone was claiming Corban and not giving the money to God.

There lips paid homage to God but their hearts were interested in keeping their money. That is what Jesus is talking about.

If you reread the commentary you quoted you will see it to is saying they laying aside real worship of God by using loopholes in the traditions of man that were originally made to enhance that worship not to distract from it.

They were in fact ignoring scripture and claiming their traditions covered it.

The problem was not their traditions but the attitude that would use them to circumvent the truth.

Back to our discussion if baptism is required as the Catholic tradition says then there was going to be a lot of surprized people that weren't baptized. However if the tradition is wrong then there will be a lot of people in heaven that were baptized that didn't need to be.

Lkewise if Mary and Saints can intercede for those still alive then there is going to be a lot of prayer in heaven for the Catholic folk. Likewise if it isn't possible there is going to be less. Catholic tradition never says NEVER pray to JESUS.

If the Catholic view of purgatory is correct the Catholic folk will be getting out quicker than the Protestant. However if the view is wrong nothing really changes. Oh you might say it is a way of milking people out of their money, but before you do remember people that live in glass houses should be careful of throwing stones. Protestant have chariatans that have been bilking money from people promising a slot machine 1000 fold return, answered prayers, long life, mandatory obedience, saving of lost loved ones and other ploys.

Again it all goes back to intent or attitude of the heart.



Reuben
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Reuben »

Matthew 15:1-9 (KJV)
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Notice again, the tradition was nullifying the commandments of God. Not sure how much more simpler this could be.

Back to the original subject of this thread - purgatory.

When an institution such as the Catholic church demands money from its people in the throws of losing a loved one is hateful at best. I am not sure how anyone who is a Christian would feel comfortable sending or recommending a new convert to become a part of a local Catholic church. If Christians see nothing wrong with these heinous teachings - why don't they help the Catholic church in winning people in their local areas if they believe these are not damnable doctrines?

I thought about this money and purgatory. What if the parents of the member of our church refused to pay any more money to get their son out of purgatory - what would have happened to their boy?



Reuben
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Reuben »

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
This is one of their catechisms on purgatory. I am more and more blown away by the weirdness of it all. It's no wonder Leon makes fun of the guy with the pointed hat :crazyeyes:



Reuben
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Reuben »

No, I don't believe I am confusing anything. $5.00 was not the original amount or the amount demanded on top of it. Let's be serious... the people I am referring to would not have been broke up over five dollars. It was quite a bit to begin and then a lot more later. Again, what if they decided not to pay it - what would have happened to the son?

Let's look at the catechism again.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin (rather interesting to me if the person is saved why do they need atonement a apart from Jesus Christ)."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

I keep wondering how off the Scripture they go... however Catholicism does not believe in Sola scriptura. Wikipedia offers this explanation in contrast to the protestant reformation to the view of the catholic.
By contrast, the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches teach that the Scriptures are not the only infallible source of Christian doctrine. In their view "the Church [...] 'does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.
I guess this answers the question and problem.



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