Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ A Future Millennium

[titus213]

As you know through you studies of the Greek Language,There are several words in the Greek Language for the English word "day" but the word "day" used in the passages I presented is the greek word "hemera" and has the meaning of a Literal 24 hour day.

Once again you are making the error of interpretation which looks up a single Greek word (hemera), reads the lexicon definition, and makes the assumption that the definition of the word is how it's always used in an actual context.

The Greek word 'hemera' does not mean a literal 24 hour day. It MAY mean that, if it is used in a context that requres it. But it has the same wide meanings as our English word does (a day of infamy; the day of the horse and buggy; etc). For example, see Romans 2.5 "the day (hemera) of God's wrath", or 2 Tim 3.1 and how it uses the word "hemera" when speaking of the "last days". There are numerous examples of a non-24 hr. day use of the Greek word in the New Testament!

Context determines meaning, not dictionary definitions.

[Ray]

As you know through you studies of the Greek Language,There are several words in the Greek Language for the English word "day" but the word "day" used in the passages I presented is the greek word "hemera" and has the meaning of a Literal 24 hour day.

Once again you are making the error of interpretation which looks up a single Greek word (hemera), reads the lexicon definition, and makes the assumption that the definition of the word is how it's always used in an actual context.

The Greek word 'hemera' does not mean a literal 24 hour day. It MAY mean that, if it is used in a context that requres it. But it has the same wide meanings as our English word does (a day of infamy; the day of the horse and buggy; etc). For example, see Romans 2.5 "the day (hemera) of God's wrath", or 2 Tim 3.1 and how it uses the word "hemera" when speaking of the "last days". There are numerous examples of a non-24 hr. day use of the Greek word in the New Testament!

Context determines meaning, not dictionary definitions.

Brother Fisher,
"For example, see Romans 2.5 "the day (hemera) of God's wrath", or 2 Tim 3.1 and how it uses the word "hemera" when speaking of the "last days".


Romans 2:5 to my understanding is speaking of a lieral 24 hour "day" of GOD'S Wrath. ( How long does it take for GOD to pour out HIS Wrath )

2 Tim 3:1 Clearly speaks of the last 24 hour days.

[titus213]

Ray,

In your attempt to understand Greek without knowing Greek, and relying on dictionary definitions you seem to be only selecting the one that you want to agree with your preconceived viewpoint. Because in fact, NO GREEK LEXICON LIMITS THE WORD 'hemera' TO A 24-HR. DAY!!!

You are mistaken about both of those verses I gave you; they don't refer to a 24-hour day.

But rather than argue with you about that, let me try ones that may be easier for you to see:

John 8.56 - "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad"
Acts 2.20 - the "day of the Lord" (which the Bible repeatedly shows is not just a single 24 hour day);
Eph 6.13 - "Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day";
James 5.5 "You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter".

I could continue, but you see my point (hopefully). It is perfectly evident that the Greek word is not restricted to a single, 24-hr. day. No Greek dictionary suggests that the word can only refer to a 24-hr. day. The only people I have ever known who have tried to insist that is the case are people who are amillennial. And their claim simply falls to the ground when the facts are checked.

[scottae316]

Ray,

In your attempt to understand Greek without knowing Greek, and relying on dictionary definitions you seem to be only selecting the one that you want to agree with your preconceived viewpoint. Because in fact, NO GREEK LEXICON LIMITS THE WORD 'hemera' TO A 24-HR. DAY!!!

You are mistaken about both of those verses I gave you; they don't refer to a 24-hour day.

But rather than argue with you about that, let me try ones that may be easier for you to see:

John 8.56 - "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad"
Acts 2.20 - the "day of the Lord" (which the Bible repeatedly shows is not just a single 24 hour day);
Eph 6.13 - "Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day";
James 5.5 "You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter".

I could continue, but you see my point (hopefully). It is perfectly evident that the Greek word is not restricted to a single, 24-hr. day. No Greek dictionary suggests that the word can only refer to a 24-hr. day. The only people I have ever known who have tried to insist that is the case are people who are amillennial. And their claim simply falls to the ground when the facts are checked.

A question, do you know Greek?

[titus213]

Yes, I believe I mentioned the other day that having studied Greek for 7 years, I also taught it for 3 years at college level. That certainly doesn't make me an expert by any means, but I have at least enough familiarity with the language to know that there's more to interpreting it than looking up individual words in a lexicon.

[Justaned]

Fatherfisher
My experience with Greek was only what I needed to met miminium requirements.
However I have a very good friend that speaks Greek as a first language, teaches Greek, and is an Greek Orthodox Bishop that was tried for heresy because he spoke in tongues.

From him I have learned a few things. One of them is there is a wide difference in actual spoken Greek and technical Greek just as there is in English. Second thing I learned is the Greek translations were done technically correct using Greek grammar laws as an instrumental guide to rendering their opinion. However Greek speaking people often read the actual Greek with a sligthly different understanding.
The third thing I learned from him was he was of the opinion that the scholars that put together the Greek manuscripts from which most English Bibles are then translated from formed those manuscripts with theological bias.

His opinion is the word Chilioi found in Rev 20:4 did and does mean a period of time of longer duration than a thousand years. His view was no body would take this to mean that at the start you could mark on a calendar with an x and after 1000 units of 365 days later it would end. I believe his term was nobody that knew Greek would view it in that way. I believe his opinion is based on what exactly was said and how what was said would regisiter or mean to the original listener or receiver of the information.

I have gone to him many times for answers to Greek Language questions and the one thing that always amazes me is how long his answer is. It is because our understanding of Greek words is usually so different than the meaning that word conveyed to the listener at the time it was spoken or written.

[titus213]

Well, that's interesting . . . however, I presume the early church fathers knew Greek even better than your bishop friend, or at least as well, and none of them debated over the TRANSLATION of "the thousand years" as far as the words themselves. They didn't all agree how to INTERPRET the phrase, but no one tried to say that the words were anything other than a "thousand years". Justin Martyr, for example, expected a literal 1000 years during which Jerusalem would be rebuilt.

In addition, no translators (including Greek Orthodox) have EVER translated a version of the Bible which has anything but "thousand years" in Revelation 20. Surely if the language meant something else, someone would have at least suggested it?

There is a difference between trying to claim that the Greek itself cannot mean "thousand years" (as some have done in the discussions here) and claiming that the Greek should be interpreted as something other than "thousand years".

Of course you probably also need to bear in mind that a Greek Orthodox priest has a vested interest in NOT wanting to do anything that would suggest a Millennium (my wife is a former Greek Orthodox, and caught holy heck when she became a born again Christian, in part over that very issue).

PS - I just doublechecked the first commentary on Daniel ever written (which I have mentioned before) - it was done by Hippolytus. And he does, in fact, exactly what your bishop friend says would not be done: he marks the calendar with an x based on what he thought was the date for Christ's birth, and builds his expectation of the "future kingdom of the saints when they will reign with Christ when he comes from heaven" for a final 1000 years of history around that.

[Justaned]

Well, that's interesting . . . however, I presume the early church fathers knew Greek even better than your bishop friend, or at least as well, and none of them debated over the TRANSLATION of "the thousand years" as far as the words themselves. They didn't all agree how to INTERPRET the phrase, but no one tried to say that the words were anything other than a "thousand years". Justin Martyr, for example, expected a literal 1000 years during which Jerusalem would be rebuilt.

In addition, no translators (including Greek Orthodox) have EVER translated a version of the Bible which has anything but "thousand years" in Revelation 20. Surely if the language meant something else, someone would have at least suggested it?

There is a difference between trying to claim that the Greek itself cannot mean "thousand years" (as some have done in the discussions here) and claiming that the Greek should be interpreted as something other than "thousand years".

Of course you probably also need to bear in mind that a Greek Orthodox priest has a vested interest in NOT wanting to do anything that would suggest a Millennium (my wife is a former Greek Orthodox, and caught holy heck when she became a born again Christian, in part over that very issue).

PS - I just doublechecked the first commentary on Daniel ever written (which I have mentioned before) - it was done by Hippolytus. And he does, in fact, exactly what your bishop friend says would not be done: he marks the calendar with an x based on what he thought was the date for Christ's birth, and builds his expectation of the "future kingdom of the saints when they will reign with Christ when he comes from heaven" for a final 1000 years of history around that.

First I remind you that my friend was called to Boston, where he was tried and convicted of heresy against the church. Interesting story in itself. So I'm certain his view is not conditioned by the teaching of the church.

Again I think this is perception rather than technically of the language. When this was spoken the people didn't think in terms of thousands but rather of 10's 50' and hundreds. A thousand was like us trying to imagine a trillion.
I remember a teacher in about 10th grade telling us that short of literally throwing money away it would be impossible to spend a 1 million dollars this was the mid 60's today we learn that some lottery winners literally blow over a million dollars in one day. When I was in high school a million years outside of math class only meant to me a long long long long time. Today a million is imaginable but and a trillion years is a long long long time.

Likewise when this was spoken in the reader/writter we expressing a long long time, not a literal 1000 years or their wording would have been far different.

As to your reference to Hippolytus if you read more about him you learn he was sort of a Mr. Geek of the day taking everything at exact face value and yes I can see him marking his calendar.

[titus213]

Likewise when this was spoken in the reader/writter we expressing a long long time, not a literal 1000 years or their wording would have been far different.

I could not agree with you less. Greek always had other ways of expressing a long time, and does so in other parts of the New Testament. John himself, in fact, uses some of those words in his writings. But when he wrote what he saw in Revelation 20, he didn't use those words. He specified "the thousand years".

The simple fact is that not just Hippolytus, but others of the early Greek church fathers understood the term to mean an actual, literal 1000 years. It was only as the allegorical approach to interpreting almost all numbers of the Bible began to take hold (with Origen) that things began to shift.

This has nothing to do with how modern people read Koine Greek. It has to do with basic rules of New Testament Greek grammar. The difference of opinion cannot be foisted onto the language itself. People at least need to be honest enough to say that they see what the words say, but interpret them in a non-literal way.

[Justaned]

Likewise when this was spoken in the reader/writter we expressing a long long time, not a literal 1000 years or their wording would have been far different.

I could not agree with you less. Greek always had other ways of expressing a long time, and does so in other parts of the New Testament. John himself, in fact, uses some of those words in his writings. But when he wrote what he saw in Revelation 20, he didn't use those words. He specified "the thousand years".

The simple fact is that not just Hippolytus, but others of the early Greek church fathers understood the term to mean an actual, literal 1000 years. It was only as the allegorical approach to interpreting almost all numbers of the Bible began to take hold (with Origen) that things began to shift.

This has nothing to do with how modern people read Koine Greek. It has to do with basic rules of New Testament Greek grammar. The difference of opinion cannot be foisted onto the language itself. People at least need to be honest enough to say that they see what the words say, but interpret them in a non-literal way.

FatherFisher
Let me ask this question, based on your knowledge of Greek and to the best of your understanding if you were writing this passage and wanted to insure there would never be any misunderstandings and you were expressing an exact 1000 year period would you use the same words in the same sentence structure?

Or would you have used a different wording forming a different sentence structure more in tune with existing laws of the Greek language as you know them today?