Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ A Future Millennium

[titus213]

The main drawback with such symbolic/allegorical/non-literal and non-normal interpretations as we see being promoted here regarding the Millennium and other teachings about the end times is that they leave the average person confused and doubtful about the message of Scripture. God doesn't want us doubting what He has said, nor does He want us living under a constant question mark of puzzlement. The best focus is the plain and obvious meaning of the text. God is entirely capable of saying exactly what He means to say. So many have strayed from the clear teaching of the Bible by chasing after "spiritualized", fanciful interpretations of the Scripture. With a little imagination, anyone can create doctrinal mountains out of the smallest molehills.

The best rule of thumb is to avoid allegorical interpretations unless the Holy Spirit Himself gives us the basis for the allegory (as in Galatians 4.21-31 for instance).

[Rocky]

Have you ever done a word study on the word "thousand" in the original greek language in which the Book of Rrevelation was penned ?
In Rev 20:3 the word interpreted "thousand" is in the greek "chilioi" which it's Etymology (the early use of a word) has the meaning of "Plural of Uncertain Affinity" anyone who has studied this verse in the greek will (I think) agree with me on this point.

I studied Greek for 7 years, taught it at college level for 3 years.

You have fallen victim to a common problem those who don't actually know the language (any language) fall into. The etymology of a word usually says very little, if anything, about how the word is actually being used in a given context. For example, the English word "gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early English usage. Is that what we mean when we use the word? You see, it isn't the etymology of a word, but its actual use that determines its meaning.

In addition, you ignore the fact that the Greek word does not occur by itself in Revelation 20.3 -- it is used in conjunction with with the word "years". Thus, the word is not being "intepreted" as you claim; it is simply being translated as any Greek-speaking person would in the 1st century OR the 21st century: "thousand years". In addition, the same period of time is referred to as THE thousand years in verse 7. This phrase with the definitie article in Greek cannot be using the "plural of uncertain affinity". The reason the word is in the plural is because, in Greek, the adjective must agree with the noun, and the word for "years" is plural. Thus, the whole argument that since John uses the plural for "thousand" it must mean some vague, uncertain period of time falls to the ground as a misunderstanding of how Greek actually works!

So the reality is that you are the one doing the interpreting of the Greek expression. You are the one who insists on interpreting the phrase "thousand years" as something other than what normal language requires. It is you, therefore, who must come up with a valid explanation for why the Greek phrase must mean something other than what even non-Christian Greeks would mean by using the phrase. And you cannot.

Hello Brother Fisher,

above you wrote speaking of word Etymology:
" For example, the English word "gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early English usage. Is that what we mean when we use the word?"

I think you have made my case for me in your above statement, as the word
"gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early english (the words etymology)

Just as The word "thousand" has the meaning "plural of uncertain affinity" in early english (the word etymology)

"chilioi" (khil'-ee-oy) plural of uncertain affinity
"chilias" (khil-ee-as') one thousand

You speak of the definite article (the) used before the word "chilioi" in verse 7.

The definite article (the) is used before "chilioi" in verses 5 and 7 to refer back to the same "chilioi" that was used in verse 3.

Brother Fisher, you may want to speak more on the use of these greek words
and that's fine.

But I hope you will answer the Questions that some seem to avoid that I have asked in this thread.

1.) Do you believe (and teach) that while satan is bound there will be sin in a yet future "millennium"?? If so what is the result or effect of him (satan) being bound?

2.)If the "end of sins" ( Daniel 9:24) is accomplished in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

Ray why are you changing the meaning to fit your theology? The above replies by fatherfisher is some of the best replies I have seen on here. I would take what he said and study it out and quit whith the over allegorical interpretation method of the bible. This is common in those that adhere to false doctrine you are being dooped by who ever is teaching you this stuff. Oh and you never answered my question about your background.

[bibleman]

Have you ever done a word study on the word "thousand" in the original greek language in which the Book of Rrevelation was penned ?
In Rev 20:3 the word interpreted "thousand" is in the greek "chilioi" which it's Etymology (the early use of a word) has the meaning of "Plural of Uncertain Affinity" anyone who has studied this verse in the greek will (I think) agree with me on this point.

I studied Greek for 7 years, taught it at college level for 3 years.

You have fallen victim to a common problem those who don't actually know the language (any language) fall into. The etymology of a word usually says very little, if anything, about how the word is actually being used in a given context. For example, the English word "gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early English usage. Is that what we mean when we use the word? You see, it isn't the etymology of a word, but its actual use that determines its meaning.

In addition, you ignore the fact that the Greek word does not occur by itself in Revelation 20.3 -- it is used in conjunction with with the word "years". Thus, the word is not being "intepreted" as you claim; it is simply being translated as any Greek-speaking person would in the 1st century OR the 21st century: "thousand years". In addition, the same period of time is referred to as THE thousand years in verse 7. This phrase with the definitie article in Greek cannot be using the "plural of uncertain affinity". The reason the word is in the plural is because, in Greek, the adjective must agree with the noun, and the word for "years" is plural. Thus, the whole argument that since John uses the plural for "thousand" it must mean some vague, uncertain period of time falls to the ground as a misunderstanding of how Greek actually works!

So the reality is that you are the one doing the interpreting of the Greek expression. You are the one who insists on interpreting the phrase "thousand years" as something other than what normal language requires. It is you, therefore, who must come up with a valid explanation for why the Greek phrase must mean something other than what even non-Christian Greeks would mean by using the phrase. And you cannot.

Hello Brother Fisher,

above you wrote speaking of word Etymology:
" For example, the English word "gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early English usage. Is that what we mean when we use the word?"

I think you have made my case for me in your above statement, as the word
"gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early english (the words etymology)

Just as The word "thousand" has the meaning "plural of uncertain affinity" in early english (the word etymology)

"chilioi" (khil'-ee-oy) plural of uncertain affinity
"chilias" (khil-ee-as') one thousand

You speak of the definite article (the) used before the word "chilioi" in verse 7.

The definite article (the) is used before "chilioi" in verses 5 and 7 to refer back to the same "chilioi" that was used in verse 3.

Brother Fisher, you may want to speak more on the use of these greek words
and that's fine.

But I hope you will answer the Questions that some seem to avoid that I have asked in this thread.

1.) Do you believe (and teach) that while satan is bound there will be sin in a yet future "millennium"?? If so what is the result or effect of him (satan) being bound?

2.)If the "end of sins" ( Daniel 9:24) is accomplished in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

Ray why are you changing the meaning to fit your theology? The above replies by fatherfisher is some of the best replies I have seen on here. I would take what he said and study it out and quit whith the over allegorical interpretation method of the bible. This is common in those that adhere to false doctrine you are being dooped by who ever is teaching you this stuff. Oh and you never answered my question about your background.

Hi Rocky,



I agree fatherfisher has a great grasp on Bible doctrine and is well able to communicate it.

I really enjoy reading his post, they make so much sense and for the most part align with Bible doctrine and of course Dake theology.

[titus213]

Hi Dolph,

I don't think we can apply Daniel 9.24 to teach that sin will not occur during the Millennium.

Those who are living in their mortal bodies during that time will still have a sinful, depraved nature. Jesus will be reigning, but it will have to be with an iron rod. There will be those who refuse to worship the Lord and will be punished (Zech 14.17-19). Many will be born during this period and will need to be evangelized (Zech 8.4-6; Micah 4.1-5). Offerings for sin will be part of the restored Temple worship (Ezek 42.13 and 46.13). Human life will be prolonged, but there will still be deaths (Isaiah 65.20), and death is the result of sin.

It's interesting to me that the Bible says that at the end of the thousand years, Satan MUST be released for a little while; apparently there is some purpose in God's plan which requires it. Maybe part of the purpose is to show one and all that even with a perfect environment and Jesus Himself in charge, there will still be those who are prepared to rebel and overthrow God's rule. It certainly conveys a message to me about the ability of society to change under even the most favorable conditions imaginable!

[Rocky]

There will be No sin after the 70 weeks (which includes the coming tribulation) or during the Millennium, Dan. 9:24.

"When the thousand years are ended (THEN) Satan shall be loosed out of his prison", Rev. 20:7. Then a multitude will rebel as the sand of the sea, v.8.

Therefore, one could say there is NO sin during the Millennium. Fatherfisher??

Apparently there is ...

Zack 14:10-19
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Now of course there is a lot going on here. Not only does some of the natural man commit sin that are aloud to continue in the millennium after the judgment of the nations. But even animal sacrifices and the feast of tabernacles are reinstated for the natural man. Understand the glorified resurrected saints will not be sinning, this is referring to the natural man..

[Ray]

Ray wrote, 1.) Do you believe (and teach) that while satan is bound there will be sin in a yet future "millennium"?? If so what is the result or effect of him (satan) being bound? 2.)If the "end of sins" ( Daniel 9:24) is accomplished in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

Answer #1. The result of Satan being bound is that there will be a new ruler of this world, King Jesus, and far less sin.

Answer #2. This will happen following a sinless millennium. Read Rev. 20:7.

Hello Brother Dolph,

Your Answer #1. The result of Satan being bound is that there will be a new ruler of this world, King Jesus, and far less sin.

When JESUS has total and complete Rule of this earth there will be far less sin, THAT'S IT ?

Dolph after the Resurrection of the Saints all enemies are destroyed including sin and death. There is NO 7 year Second Chance, No 1000 year Third Chance. It will be THE END of enimies and a Chance to be saved.

1 Cor 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Your Answer #2. This will happen following a sinless millennium. Read Rev. 20:7.

Dolph in you answer #1 you say there will be "far less sin" in the Millennium,
then in answer # 2 you mention a "sinless millennium".

WHICH IS IT ??? less sin or sinless it can't be both Brother.

[Ray]

Hi Dolph,

I don't think we can apply Daniel 9.24 to teach that sin will not occur during the Millennium.

Those who are living in their mortal bodies during that time will still have a sinful, depraved nature. Jesus will be reigning, but it will have to be with an iron rod. There will be those who refuse to worship the Lord and will be punished (Zech 14.17-19). Many will be born during this period and will need to be evangelized (Zech 8.4-6; Micah 4.1-5). Offerings for sin will be part of the restored Temple worship (Ezek 42.13 and 46.13). Human life will be prolonged, but there will still be deaths (Isaiah 65.20), and death is the result of sin.

It's interesting to me that the Bible says that at the end of the thousand years, Satan MUST be released for a little while; apparently there is some purpose in God's plan which requires it. Maybe part of the purpose is to show one and all that even with a perfect environment and Jesus Himself in charge, there will still be those who are prepared to rebel and overthrow God's rule. It certainly conveys a message to me about the ability of society to change under even the most favorable conditions imaginable!

Brother Fisher,
Above you wrote:
"I don't think we can apply Daniel 9.24 to teach that sin will not occur during the Millennium."

Daniel 9:24 is Clear that 70 weeks (490 years) are determined "to make an end of sins"
Which I believe was Done in JESUS' First Advent by the finished work of the Cross AFTER the 69th week which is the 70th.


Brother Fisher, are you suggesting to forget the 490 Years of Daniel 9:24 and that it will be 1490 years "to make an end of sins"

Daniel 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

[Ray]

This is a Question Concerning The Millennium, And I'm not "badmouthing" anyone So PLEASE don't Delete it Bibleman. And could you answer my question at the end of this post?

In Daniel 9:24 one of the six accomplishments to be done in the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins"

As I have said in a previous thread this "end of sins" was in fact accomplished
by the Finished Work Of CHRIST in the 70th week, which is in the past.

Yet the Question was asked me several times (paraphrase) "How can there be "an end of sins" when there is still sin"?? Well in this previous thread I gave the answer as I interpret it as being.

Many here on this Forum (some pastors) Believe and teach that this "end of sins" will be accomplished in a yet future 70th week.

Question:
If this "end of sins" is made in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

Hi Ray,

Get the book Revelation Expounded, by Dake.

It will answer all of your questions.

Read it and if after you read it you still have questions then we could talk.

Hello Bibleman,
If you will allow me, I will give the reasons why I cannot suscribe to any of Rev. Dakes Material just from some of the posts on this forum that contain the writings of Rev. Dake.

[titus213]

Brother Fisher,
Daniel 9:24 is Clear that 70 weeks (490 years) are determined "to make an end of sins"
Which I believe was Done in JESUS' First Advent by the finished work of the Cross AFTER the 69th week which is the 70th.

But notice the beginning of verse 24 - the 70 weeks are determined "upon thy people and thy holy city". The prophecy of the 70 weeks pertains to the Jews. Their transgression, sin, and iniquity continue. Vision and prophecy regarding the Jews have not yet been sealed up. Their reconciliation to their Messiah has not yet taken place (except for a remnant who believe in our own time). As Paul teaches in Romans 9-11, the Jewish branch was broken off but will one day be restored. That time has not yet come, thus Daniel's prophecy has not yet been fulfilled for his people and his holy city of Jerusalem. You cannot simply ignore this part of the verse and come to a true understanding of the 70 weeks.

Brother Fisher, are you suggesting to forget the 490 Years of Daniel 9:24 and that it will be 1490 years "to make an end of sins".

Not at all; I have already explained in an earlier post today that the end of sins for Daniel's people and his holy city will happen at the second coming of Christ. The final few chapters of Zechariah speak to this fact. Jesus taught that His return to this earth would be at the end of the great tribulation spoken of by Daniel, which will be at the end of the 70th week or the completion of the 490 years.

[Ray]

The main drawback with such symbolic/allegorical/non-literal and non-normal interpretations as we see being promoted here regarding the Millennium and other teachings about the end times is that they leave the average person confused and doubtful about the message of Scripture. God doesn't want us doubting what He has said, nor does He want us living under a constant question mark of puzzlement. The best focus is the plain and obvious meaning of the text. God is entirely capable of saying exactly what He means to say. So many have strayed from the clear teaching of the Bible by chasing after "spiritualized", fanciful interpretations of the Scripture. With a little imagination, anyone can create doctrinal mountains out of the smallest molehills.

The best rule of thumb is to avoid allegorical interpretations unless the Holy Spirit Himself gives us the basis for the allegory (as in Galatians 4.21-31 for instance).

Brother Fisher,

Here is "CLEAR TEACHING". How would you interpret the verses below where to me it is Clear that at the Resurrection (Rapture) is also the Consumation of all things ?

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


In the verses below we see that a "Clear Teaching" is presented, JESUS makes it CLEAR that HE will Resurrect the Saints (Rapture) at the "Last Day", Also Judgement of the unrightous occurs on this Same "Last day" Jn 12:48
(eschatos hemera = The last in time or place, a literal 24 hour day)


John 6:39
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Brother Fisher, How does these verses line up with Dispensationalism ?