Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ A Future Millennium

[Reuben]

Here is what you said:

The view I have come to, after much Study and Prayer is that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age. I Believe that while Our LORD JESUS' reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature being governed by HIS HOLY SPIRT.

Your stance is that we currently are in the Millennium which according to Rev. 20, Satan is bound or imprisoned. There are questions that you leave wide open with such a theory.

When looking at Rev. 20:1-3 the Bible answers questions itself. Such as, Satan will be bound, incarcerated, imprisoned... which reveals his restrain in doing or operating. It then states that this confinement will keep him from deceiving the nations which later in the chapter describes what he does do once he is loosed. The Word tells us here that there is a specific place where Satan will be imprisoned - the Bottomless Pit.

He can't currently be the power and prince of the air if he is presently imprisoned in another place called Bottomless Pit - they are not one and the same.

A question that begs to be asked is when did this current Millennium begin? At the resurrection of Christ? If so, we are 2000 years removed which means not one but two Millenniums.

Another question: you said above that you believe the Millennium is spiritual in nature etc. What gave you that idea when reading these passages - or what authority by Scripture do you have, to believe or suppose that the Scripture here means something else?

With all due respect, I just don't follow your line of reasoning here.

[Reuben]

The millennial kingdom will be a literal, earthly one with earthly subjects, many of whom will be rebels at heart against the rule of Christ. They will openly rebel the first chance they get when the devil is loosed out of the pit at the end of the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-10). Anyone who has really been “born again” and baptized in the Holy Spirit and has fellowship with God during the 1,000 years certainly will not rebel with Satan at that time. That there will be sinners here during the Millennium is clear from Isa. 2:2-4; 11:2-4; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Ps.2:6-9; Mic. 4:3; Zech. 14:16-21; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 20:7-10.
Many unsaved people will be permitted to live and go through the Millennium because they will keep the outward laws of the government, but in their hearts they will be rebellious against the government. On the other hand, many will be executed during the Millennium because of committing sins worthy of death (Isa. 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20). There will have to be laws to govern such people during the Millennium, else there could be no transgression of the law to bring judgment, if there were no basis for judgment.
God's Plan for Man.

Some of what Dake had to say on the subject.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding of the sin principle that dwells within the unregenerate heart. A person can obey rules externally but be a rebel inwardly.

[branham1965]

i have seen and heard this verse used to teach ...that ...in the early 1980's.

the same people tried to tie Zechariah 13:1ff in with this ... concept.





THE 20TH CENTURY WAS THE MOST HORRIBLE BRUTAL PERIOD IN RECORDED WORLD HISTORY.
THE TWO WORLD WARS.THE HOLOCAUST.THE GENOCIDAL MURDER OF 6 MILLION OF JEHOVAH'S CHOSEN.IT IS BEYOND HUMAN REASONING WHAT LUCIFER AND HIS FORCES HAVE BEEN WREAKING ON MANKIND AND PLANET EARTH.LESTER SUMRALL WHAT DO YOU SAY???YOU DELIVERED CLARITA FROM BITING DEVILS!!!YOU TELL US OF THE INVISIBLE BOY.AND THE WITCH DOCTOR IN BRAZIL.T.L.OSBORN WHAT DO YOU THINK???MILLIONS WERE REACHED BY YOU AND SISTER DAISY.MORRIS CERULLO PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED IN THE NATIONS???ERNEST ANGLEY I KNOW YOU ARE PREACHING AND TEACHING THE TRUTH ABOUT LUCIFER AND THE END TIMES.FINIS JENNINGS DAKE ARE YOUR NOTES TRUE???YES BEFORE THE GOD OF HEAVEN THEY ARE TRUE BY EXPERIENCE.AND IF I AM SAYING OR BELIEVING THE THINGS YOU WARNED ME OF IN YOUR BIBLE TO STAY AWAY FROM.... EVEN IF THEY MAKE ME AND THE ENTIRE WORLD A LIAR .LET GOD BE TRUE.

[branham1965]

I ALSO SHOULD SAY THAT THIS STUFF WE TALK ABOUT HERE.IT IS ETERNAL.IT NOT ONLY EFFECTS US WHEN WE ARE PLAYING IN IT i mean if we get off in the ditch and deceived
BUT IT EFFECTS OUR FAMILIES.OUR FRIEND EVERYBODY.IF I COULD EVER TELL FOLKS ANYTHING ID SAY PLEASE DONT DO WHAT I DID .PLEASE GET OUT OF IT TONIGHT.THERE MAY NOT BE ANOTHER TIME TO!!!!

[Ray]

Here is what you said:

The view I have come to, after much Study and Prayer is that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age. I Believe that while Our LORD JESUS' reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature being governed by HIS HOLY SPIRT.

Your stance is that we currently are in the Millennium which according to Rev. 20, Satan is bound or imprisoned. There are questions that you leave wide open with such a theory.

When looking at Rev. 20:1-3 the Bible answers questions itself. Such as, Satan will be bound, incarcerated, imprisoned... which reveals his restrain in doing or operating. It then states that this confinement will keep him from deceiving the nations which later in the chapter describes what he does do once he is loosed. The Word tells us here that there is a specific place where Satan will be imprisoned - the Bottomless Pit.

He can't currently be the power and prince of the air if he is presently imprisoned in another place called Bottomless Pit - they are not one and the same.

A question that begs to be asked is when did this current Millennium begin? At the resurrection of Christ? If so, we are 2000 years removed which means not one but two Millenniums.

Another question: you said above that you believe the Millennium is spiritual in nature etc. What gave you that idea when reading these passages - or what authority by Scripture do you have, to believe or suppose that the Scripture here means something else?

With all due respect, I just don't follow your line of reasoning here.

Brother Reuben,
You sure seem to be avoiding the question I have been asking you through out this thread.

I have and will attempt to adress your questions, Yet why won't you mine ?

You mention the time frame of what I interpret as being the "Millennium" being over 2000 years 2 Millenniums.

Have you ever done a word study on the word "thousand" in the original greek language in which the Book of Rrevelation was penned ?
In Rev 20:3 the word interpreted "thousand" is in the greek "chilioi" which it's Etymology (the early use of a word) has the meaning of "Plural of Uncertain Affinity" anyone who has studied this verse in the greek will (I think) agree with me on this point.

In the Old Testament Hebrew, in the Book of Psalms we see such a use of this same word "thousand"
Psalm 50:10
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Do you believe GOD owns EVERY beast of the forest but ONLY the cattle upon a "Thousand" hills ? Who owns the cattle on all the hills after "a thousand" ?

Then you speak of the wording providing a sure and positive binding, Yet we must look at what it is satan is bound from doing. I see this wording as an analogy or a parable (parabole: a comparison of one thing with another, in likness, or similitude) Language just as what was used in Matthew 12:29. Lets look.

Matthew 12:24-29
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.


Do you believe JESUS literally entered at that time into satan's house, and literally bound him ? How can this be if in a few chapters later we see satan
persuading a Cheif Apostle Peter. Did satan break free from the binding put on
him by JESUS ? NO WAY this is an anology to make what HE (JESUS) was saying to be understood. Just as John uses in Rev 20:3

Matthew 16:23
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

[Ray]

This is a Question Concerning The Millennium, And I'm not "badmouthing" anyone So PLEASE don't Delete it Bibleman. And could you answer my question at the end of this post?

In Daniel 9:24 one of the six accomplishments to be done in the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins"

As I have said in a previous thread this "end of sins" was in fact accomplished
by the Finished Work Of CHRIST in the 70th week, which is in the past.

Yet the Question was asked me several times (paraphrase) "How can there be "an end of sins" when there is still sin"?? Well in this previous thread I gave the answer as I interpret it as being.

Many here on this Forum (some pastors) Believe and teach that this "end of sins" will be accomplished in a yet future 70th week.

Question:
If this "end of sins" is made in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

[bibleman]

This is a Question Concerning The Millennium, And I'm not "badmouthing" anyone So PLEASE don't Delete it Bibleman. And could you answer my question at the end of this post?

In Daniel 9:24 one of the six accomplishments to be done in the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins"

As I have said in a previous thread this "end of sins" was in fact accomplished
by the Finished Work Of CHRIST in the 70th week, which is in the past.

Yet the Question was asked me several times (paraphrase) "How can there be "an end of sins" when there is still sin"?? Well in this previous thread I gave the answer as I interpret it as being.

Many here on this Forum (some pastors) Believe and teach that this "end of sins" will be accomplished in a yet future 70th week.

Question:
If this "end of sins" is made in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

Hi Ray,

Get the book Revelation Expounded, by Dake.

It will answer all of your questions.

Read it and if after you read it you still have questions then we could talk.

[titus213]

Have you ever done a word study on the word "thousand" in the original greek language in which the Book of Rrevelation was penned ?
In Rev 20:3 the word interpreted "thousand" is in the greek "chilioi" which it's Etymology (the early use of a word) has the meaning of "Plural of Uncertain Affinity" anyone who has studied this verse in the greek will (I think) agree with me on this point.

I studied Greek for 7 years, taught it at college level for 3 years.

You have fallen victim to a common problem those who don't actually know the language (any language) fall into. The etymology of a word usually says very little, if anything, about how the word is actually being used in a given context. For example, the English word "gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early English usage. Is that what we mean when we use the word? You see, it isn't the etymology of a word, but its actual use that determines its meaning.

In addition, you ignore the fact that the Greek word does not occur by itself in Revelation 20.3 -- it is used in conjunction with with the word "years". Thus, the word is not being "intepreted" as you claim; it is simply being translated as any Greek-speaking person would in the 1st century OR the 21st century: "thousand years". In addition, the same period of time is referred to as THE thousand years in verse 7. This phrase with the definitie article in Greek cannot be using the "plural of uncertain affinity". The reason the word is in the plural is because, in Greek, the adjective must agree with the noun, and the word for "years" is plural. Thus, the whole argument that since John uses the plural for "thousand" it must mean some vague, uncertain period of time falls to the ground as a misunderstanding of how Greek actually works!

So the reality is that you are the one doing the interpreting of the Greek expression. You are the one who insists on interpreting the phrase "thousand years" as something other than what normal language requires. It is you, therefore, who must come up with a valid explanation for why the Greek phrase must mean something other than what even non-Christian Greeks would mean by using the phrase. And you cannot.

[Ray]

Have you ever done a word study on the word "thousand" in the original greek language in which the Book of Rrevelation was penned ?
In Rev 20:3 the word interpreted "thousand" is in the greek "chilioi" which it's Etymology (the early use of a word) has the meaning of "Plural of Uncertain Affinity" anyone who has studied this verse in the greek will (I think) agree with me on this point.

I studied Greek for 7 years, taught it at college level for 3 years.

You have fallen victim to a common problem those who don't actually know the language (any language) fall into. The etymology of a word usually says very little, if anything, about how the word is actually being used in a given context. For example, the English word "gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early English usage. Is that what we mean when we use the word? You see, it isn't the etymology of a word, but its actual use that determines its meaning.

In addition, you ignore the fact that the Greek word does not occur by itself in Revelation 20.3 -- it is used in conjunction with with the word "years". Thus, the word is not being "intepreted" as you claim; it is simply being translated as any Greek-speaking person would in the 1st century OR the 21st century: "thousand years". In addition, the same period of time is referred to as THE thousand years in verse 7. This phrase with the definitie article in Greek cannot be using the "plural of uncertain affinity". The reason the word is in the plural is because, in Greek, the adjective must agree with the noun, and the word for "years" is plural. Thus, the whole argument that since John uses the plural for "thousand" it must mean some vague, uncertain period of time falls to the ground as a misunderstanding of how Greek actually works!

So the reality is that you are the one doing the interpreting of the Greek expression. You are the one who insists on interpreting the phrase "thousand years" as something other than what normal language requires. It is you, therefore, who must come up with a valid explanation for why the Greek phrase must mean something other than what even non-Christian Greeks would mean by using the phrase. And you cannot.

Hello Brother Fisher,

above you wrote speaking of word Etymology:
" For example, the English word "gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early English usage. Is that what we mean when we use the word?"

I think you have made my case for me in your above statement, as the word
"gorgeous" has the meaning "throaty" in early english (the words etymology)

Just as The word "thousand" has the meaning "plural of uncertain affinity" in early english (the word etymology)

"chilioi" (khil'-ee-oy) plural of uncertain affinity
"chilias" (khil-ee-as') one thousand

You speak of the definite article (the) used before the word "chilioi" in verse 7.

The definite article (the) is used before "chilioi" in verses 5 and 7 to refer back to the same "chilioi" that was used in verse 3.

Brother Fisher, you may want to speak more on the use of these greek words
and that's fine.

But I hope you will answer the Questions that some seem to avoid that I have asked in this thread.

1.) Do you believe (and teach) that while satan is bound there will be sin in a yet future "millennium"?? If so what is the result or effect of him (satan) being bound?

2.)If the "end of sins" ( Daniel 9:24) is accomplished in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

[titus213]

Ray,

I think my example proves the error of your assumption. You cannot take a single word and establish how it is being used in actual usage by going back to its etymology. And not only that, in your case you are attempting to show that the Greek plural for thousand must mean what the Greek plural means ONLY IF THAT IS THE GREEK WORD BEING USED BY ITSELF. But as I said, the simple fact is that the word is not being used by itself. The only reason it is plural is because the noun it modifies in Greek is plural. So the very definition you quote DOES NOT APPLY in the case of Revelation 20.

1.) Do you believe (and teach) that while satan is bound there will be sin in a yet future "millennium"?? If so what is the result or effect of him (satan) being bound?

Yes, because man will still have a carnal nature. The effect of Satan being bound is, as the text says, his inability to deceive the nations as he had been doing.

2.If the "end of sins" ( Daniel 9:24) is accomplished in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

Daniel 9.24 speaks of what will be accomplished at the end of the 70 weeks "for your [Daniel's] people and your holy city". The vision has to do with the transgression, the sins, the iniquity of Israel. That is what will be sealed up, or made an end of, at the conclusion of the 70 weeks. This will be brought about by the conversion of Israel in their darkest hour, when Christ will return and they will see Him whom they pierced, mourn for Him, plunge into the fountain for sin and uncleanness, and become a new nation, as written in Zech 12.10-13.2 and Rom 11.25-26.