Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ God's role in sickness - Permissive or Causative

[branham1965]

REVED what did i do or do you need me to explain??

that was...my bad.i dont know how to operate a computer after 7 years.ie quoting you etc.my bad.

REVED
i think we can go to extremes either way.i have no doubt that the LORD gave Pastor Bible his Church.id stake my life on it.and Kimbos life.
He is in the business of doing good things like that for His beloved.
you sound more like a CHURCH OF CHRIST PREACHER than AG.i think you are fooling around.

No where in scripture does God ever promise, imply or that was the normative way to get a piece of property. The fact that it worked for someone does not mean it was God intention or God's doing. It simply means that is what they did and they got the land. (((((+goofy billy here you are kidding right????God does that all the time!!!

We know Satan is a counterfeiter and without naming names or pointing any fingers I know Satan could and would plant such a false teaching and make it come to fruition just to propagate the lie.((like who???say it????

Billy
Read what you said and then tell me why you said what you did.
Also please don't quote me and then modify the quote to make it look like I said some things I didn't.
We have all seen many counterfeits from the adversary that from outward appearance appears to be blessed of God but we know they aren’t. ((((this is a cult that denies the DEITY OF CHRIST. The Mormon religion one of the fastest growing cultic Christian religions is a perfect example. Another is some of the Mega churches that have risen over time only to be exposed as hotbeds of sin and corruption. (((most of the Megas are doing a good job.Joel Osteen is a good young man.i LOVED his Dad.

So the real question becomes was it God, was it Satan or was it something that simply worked the way it did?

(((((((((((( that sounds like bar talk frankly ....good grief.

Billy
Please read what you said then explain to me why you said what you did.
Also please don't quote me and then modify the quote so it looks like I said something I didn't

[titus213]

Father Fisher, can you boil all this down? Active, passive, causative or permissive when it comes to God's role??
Could everyone (FF, VW and Ed) make a short, concise position summary?

In the big picture, all sickness, disease, etc. is due to sin. The destructive disease germs were introduced at the time Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree. The corruption of the genetic code (DNA), the beginning of imperfections in reproduction and embryonic development, and all the pains which the man and the woman -- along with their posterity -- would suffer grew out of that one apostasy. Therefore, God is not the cause of sickness.

Yet God’s role is not passive. I think this is one of the great lessons of the Book of Job, which I believe was written, in part, to shed some light on suffering through sickness and calamities. He helps his children to endure these things, controls the extent to which they occur, overrules Satan’s purposes in causing them, and has the power to heal and deliver. God actively uses such things caused by Satan to purify and refine us, actively working all things out to our ultimate good as we turn to him in faith.

On a personal note, I might just add this observation. My wife has Stage IV cancer. Even her unsaved physician and the chemotherapy nurses refer to her disease as a “malignancy”. It is something clinically “malign” which is working in her body; it is evil, malicious, and adversarial. By using such terms even the unsaved are unwittingly bearing witness to the true cause of the cancer: our Adversary.

I’m sorry this isn’t very short or all that concise, but hopefully it clarifies my viewpoint on the question.

[branham1965]

dolph
you sound like an individual who embraces white supremacist ideas. you are right down the line with them.

Many Native American Indians feel the same way about the land in the US. While the cowboy movies usually portray the Indians for attacks and breaking treaties, it was actually the US government that broke most of the treaties. If you look at the problems that many Indians have today in their reservations and Nations, much of it is because of this.

That's the Hollywood line. The white Christians were the barbarians and the Indians were angels. These savages were in constant warfare before we ever came, hadn't yet discovered the wheel and worshiped the Devil in many different forms.

[scottae316]

Many Native American Indians feel the same way about the land in the US. While the cowboy movies usually portray the Indians for attacks and breaking treaties, it was actually the US government that broke most of the treaties. If you look at the problems that many Indians have today in their reservations and Nations, much of it is because of this.

That's the Hollywood line. The white Christians were the barbarians and the Indians were angels. These savages were in constant warfare before we ever came, hadn't yet discovered the wheel and worshiped the Devil in many different forms.

Actually the "Hollywood line" is all the cowboy movies that show the Indians as savages always attacking the innocent whites. Sorry. However you are right, several tribes did war with each other constantly. Yes, many did worship false gods. What has this to do with the fact that the white government kept forcing them to move when more land was desired or natural wealth was found?

[Justaned]

Father Fisher, can you boil all this down? Active, passive, causative or permissive when it comes to God's role??
Could everyone (FF, VW and Ed) make a short, concise position summary?

In the big picture, all sickness, disease, etc. is due to sin. The destructive disease germs were introduced at the time Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tree. The corruption of the genetic code (DNA), the beginning of imperfections in reproduction and embryonic development, and all the pains which the man and the woman -- along with their posterity -- would suffer grew out of that one apostasy. Therefore, God is not the cause of sickness.

Yet God’s role is not passive. I think this is one of the great lessons of the Book of Job, which I believe was written, in part, to shed some light on suffering through sickness and calamities. He helps his children to endure these things, controls the extent to which they occur, overrules Satan’s purposes in causing them, and has the power to heal and deliver. God actively uses such things caused by Satan to purify and refine us, actively working all things out to our ultimate good as we turn to him in faith.

On a personal note, I might just add this observation. My wife has Stage IV cancer. Even her unsaved physician and the chemotherapy nurses refer to her disease as a “malignancy”. It is something clinically “malign” which is working in her body; it is evil, malicious, and adversarial. By using such terms even the unsaved are unwittingly bearing witness to the true cause of the cancer: our Adversary.

I’m sorry this isn’t very short or all that concise, but hopefully it clarifies my viewpoint on the question.

I agree except for the part that sickness came from sin. I still wonder if man wasn't always designed to need the tree of Life to prevent the effects of disease from weakening and eventually killing man. When God prevented man access to the Tree of Life man no longer had access to the regenerative power that the Tree of Live was so designed to provide as proven by it's name.

[victoryword]

Father Fisher, can you boil all this down? Active, passive, causative or permissive when it comes to God's role??
Could everyone (FF, VW and Ed) make a short, concise position summary?

Here is my position:

I do not believe God ever wanted or planned sickness to come into the universe. It is all due to the fact that Adam brought death through sin into the world (Rom. 5:12). Satan held the power of death (Heb. 2:14). I do not even believe that God uses sickness. God is at war with sickness (Acts 10:38). Sickness does not purify anyone. The Word of God and the Holy Spirit is sufficient for that.

All Old Testament allusions to God being the the One who brought sickness can be seen in a permissive sense rather than a causative one just as the same passges in the OT that would appear that God had caused someone to sin, hardened someone's heart or that He sent evil spirits to do evil deeds. All such passages can be interpreted as God removing HIs hand of protection and allowing the naturally consequences of sin take place due to the individual(s) rejcting Him.

A study of the proper principles of Bible interpretation justifies my position.

[branham1965]

Duet 32:35ff "See now that I ,even I am He,and there is no god with me.I KILL AND I MAKE ALIVE I WOUND AND I HEAL;neither is there any that can deliver out of my Hand.
v41If I sharpen my glittering Sword and mine Hand take hold on Judgement,I will render vengeance to my enemies and will reward them that hate Me."
"HE THAT DESPISED MOSES LAW DIED WITHOUT MERCY UNDER TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YE SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HATH DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE.FOR WE KNOW HIM THAT HATH SAID VENGEANCE BELONGETH TO ME I WILL RECOMPENSE SAITH THE LORD.AND AGAIN THE LORD SHALL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.IT IS A FEARFUL THING FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD." HEB 10:28-31.

the unbiblical idea that God is not a God of Judgement is a creation of the Western Church.
God hates just as much as He can love.
His right Hand of Mercy is extended.His Nail Riven Hand is extended to all.

BUT His left Hand of Judgement is just as real as the right Hand of Mercy.
GOD killed people in both Testaments.He hated as well as loved.
The Book of Revelation is a Book of His Judgement being poured out.Many many tares wanted it omitted from the Canon.but GOD made sure it was put in there.

[branham1965]

VW
Genesis to Revelation shows the JUDGEMENT OF GOD.ITS REAL, FEARFUL and DREADFUL.
we are to fear Him who can destroy us in hell.Lk 12
and billions of people are going to hell forever.
some of us just cant accept that.so what do we do???
we go to the Greek and Hebrew and guess who meets us there???!!! knows it far far better than we do.


"The indignation of the LORD is upon all nations.and his fury is upon their armies he hath utterly destroyed them and hath delivered them to the slaughter.v6 the Sword of the LORD is filled with blood..Is 34

Father Fisher, can you boil all this down? Active, passive, causative or permissive when it comes to God's role??
Could everyone (FF, VW and Ed) make a short, concise position summary?

Here is my position:

I do not believe God ever wanted or planned sickness to come into the universe. It is all due to the fact that Adam brought death through sin into the world (Rom. 5:12). Satan held the power of death (Heb. 2:14). I do not even believe that God uses sickness. God is at war with sickness (Acts 10:38). Sickness does not purify anyone. The Word of God and the Holy Spirit is sufficient for that.

All Old Testament allusions to God being the the One who brought sickness can be seen in a permissive sense rather than a causative one just as the same passges in the OT that would appear that God had caused someone to sin, hardened someone's heart or that He sent evil spirits to do evil deeds. All such passages can be interpreted as God removing HIs hand of protection and allowing the naturally consequences of sin take place due to the individual(s) rejcting Him.

A study of the proper principles of Bible interpretation justifies my position.

[victoryword]

Duet 32:35ff "See now that I ,even I am He,and there is no god with me.I KILL AND I MAKE ALIVE I WOUND AND I HEAL;neither is there any that can deliver out of my Hand.
v41If I sharpen my glittering Sword and mine Hand take hold on Judgement,I will render vengeance to my enemies and will reward them that hate Me."
"HE THAT DESPISED MOSES LAW DIED WITHOUT MERCY UNDER TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YE SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HATH DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE.FOR WE KNOW HIM THAT HATH SAID VENGEANCE BELONGETH TO ME I WILL RECOMPENSE SAITH THE LORD.AND AGAIN THE LORD SHALL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.IT IS A FEARFUL THING FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD." HEB 10:28-31.

the unbiblical idea that God is not a God of Judgement is a creation of the Western Church.
God hates just as much as He can love.
His right Hand of Mercy is extended.His Nail Riven Hand is extended to all.

BUT His left Hand of Judgement is just as real as the right Hand of Mercy.
GOD killed people in both Testaments.He hated as well as loved.
The Book of Revelation is a Book of His Judgement being poured out.Many many tares wanted it omitted from the Canon.but GOD made sure it was put in there.

Hi Billy

I never said that God was not a God of judgement. However, we must understand God's methods for how He judges. First, a simple Biblical rule as affirmed by numerous Hebrew scholars is that God is often said to do the thing which He allows or permits. For example, let's take the passage you quoted - well, actually you gave the wrong reference because the passage you quoted actually comes from Deut. 32:39, but that's a minor point. Keeping it in context with all that Moses said, we can see how God executes His wrath and judgment:

• “And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.” Deut. 31:16-18.

People tell God, “We don't need you.” They serve other gods and push the True God out of their lives and thus they are judged and cursed. This is their own choice (Deut. 30:15, 19; see also Jer. 8:3). God so respects the free-will and His delegated authority that if we forsake and reject Him then He allows us the freedom of our choices and its subsequent consequences.

[branham1965]

VW
thank you for your response.i think i might understand what you are saying.i attended Grace Cathedral on and off in Akron .i was stunned when Reverend Angley rebuked that popular notion from the Pulpit.He did not accept that teaching at all.not at all.He taught Mercy and also Judgement.and its frightening.
the LORD said through Moses He killed.He casts many into eternal death in matthew 25:41.yes???He killed both Annanias and Sapphira.He killed Herod.And He blinded Elymas.Paul sent His Judgement out on many people!!!!He kills much of the earth in Revelation.yes???
he taught on the Judgements of God.im not just talking.i know what it is to get waylaid by the LORD.

Duet 32:35ff "See now that I ,even I am He,and there is no god with me.I KILL AND I MAKE ALIVE I WOUND AND I HEAL;neither is there any that can deliver out of my Hand.
v41If I sharpen my glittering Sword and mine Hand take hold on Judgement,I will render vengeance to my enemies and will reward them that hate Me."
"HE THAT DESPISED MOSES LAW DIED WITHOUT MERCY UNDER TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YE SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HATH TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HATH DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE.FOR WE KNOW HIM THAT HATH SAID VENGEANCE BELONGETH TO ME I WILL RECOMPENSE SAITH THE LORD.AND AGAIN THE LORD SHALL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.IT IS A FEARFUL THING FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD." HEB 10:28-31.

the unbiblical idea that God is not a God of Judgement is a creation of the Western Church.
God hates just as much as He can love.
His right Hand of Mercy is extended.His Nail Riven Hand is extended to all.

BUT His left Hand of Judgement is just as real as the right Hand of Mercy.
GOD killed people in both Testaments.He hated as well as loved.
The Book of Revelation is a Book of His Judgement being poured out.Many many tares wanted it omitted from the Canon.but GOD made sure it was put in there.

Hi Billy

I never said that God was not a God of judgement. However, we must understand God's methods for how He judges. First, a simple Biblical rule as affirmed by numerous Hebrew scholars is that God is often said to do the thing which He allows or permits. For example, let's take the passage you quoted - well, actually you gave the wrong reference because the passage you quoted actually comes from Deut. 32:39, but that's a minor point. Keeping it in context with all that Moses said, we can see how God executes His wrath and judgment:

• “And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.” Deut. 31:16-18.

People tell God, “We don't need you.” They serve other gods and push the True God out of their lives and thus they are judged and cursed. This is their own choice (Deut. 30:15, 19; see also Jer. 8:3). God so respects the free-will and His delegated authority that if we forsake and reject Him then He allows us the freedom of our choices and its subsequent consequences.