Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ HE WHO HINDERS

[bibleman]

Let us get back on track.
The discussion is He Who Hinders.

WW2 was introduced to saw how God restrained the antichrist like Hitler from winning the war. Hitler made blunders that had to be providence or God and I choose God.

Likewise I believe God is the restraint behind what is Hindering the Antichrist today. I further more believe it has to be a spirit hinderance.
I don't see that there is anyway possible for the church as it is today to be that hinderance.

The 'he" can't be God because God will not "be taken out of the way", as Dr. Dake makes clear. God is ever present, even during the tribulation.

I said God is the restraint behind that which is hindering and that I thought the hinderance was spiritual and something other than church.
Personally I think the Antichrist is something Islamic in nature and I believe it is being restrainted by the Angel assigned to restrain it.

Or it could be something scientific in nature (something meant to deceive, something that will fool even the elect) that is being restrained from either discovery or announcement by a spiritual being. Imagine if science could ever produce something that looked like they created life, or proof that aliens were involved with the event of Exodus. Our society would break down within weeks. Most churches would be empty overnight and turmoil would prevail.

Then imagine someone that claimed to be from God stepped up right before the world self imploded and proved it wrong or that he seemingly was the actual power.

He would be worshipped and given total power, and even the very elect would begin to question their religion. But before everyone departed from the faith Jesus would return and put an end to all the heresy.

Again to think it is the church is to think highly of man, but more importantly it seems to support a rapture that all of us would rather happen than to go through what Revelation tells us is ahead.

The problem is scripture tells us our "Blessed Hope" is the faith in the Second Coming of Christ not in the Rapture of the Church which most Dispensationalist/Futuristics have made it.

Hi Ed,

Above you stated: "The problem is scripture tells us our "Blessed Hope" is the faith in the Second Coming of Christ not in the Rapture of the Church..."

That statement is contrary to the Statement of Faith of the Assemblies of God.

WE BELIEVE...in The Blessed Hope—When Jesus Raptures His Church Prior to His Return to Earth (the second coming). At this future moment in time all believers who have died will rise from their graves and will meet the Lord in the air, and Christians who are alive will be caught up with them, to be with the Lord forever. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG] http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_ ... _short.cfm

Do you disagree with the Assemblies of God position on the Blessed Hope?

I was discussing what scripture said. What wrote scripture? Who wrote AG doctrine? Why is the questions even being asked? Do you still harbor that root of bitterness over not being an AG ordained preacher?

Hi Ed,

Just wanted the record to be clear.

Since you are a member and ordained with the AG, I think your denomination would appreciate it if you stated yours and their doctrine correctly.

[Justaned]

Let us get back on track.
The discussion is He Who Hinders.

WW2 was introduced to saw how God restrained the antichrist like Hitler from winning the war. Hitler made blunders that had to be providence or God and I choose God.

Likewise I believe God is the restraint behind what is Hindering the Antichrist today. I further more believe it has to be a spirit hinderance.
I don't see that there is anyway possible for the church as it is today to be that hinderance.

The 'he" can't be God because God will not "be taken out of the way", as Dr. Dake makes clear. God is ever present, even during the tribulation.

I said God is the restraint behind that which is hindering and that I thought the hinderance was spiritual and something other than church.
Personally I think the Antichrist is something Islamic in nature and I believe it is being restrainted by the Angel assigned to restrain it.

Or it could be something scientific in nature (something meant to deceive, something that will fool even the elect) that is being restrained from either discovery or announcement by a spiritual being. Imagine if science could ever produce something that looked like they created life, or proof that aliens were involved with the event of Exodus. Our society would break down within weeks. Most churches would be empty overnight and turmoil would prevail.

Then imagine someone that claimed to be from God stepped up right before the world self imploded and proved it wrong or that he seemingly was the actual power.

He would be worshipped and given total power, and even the very elect would begin to question their religion. But before everyone departed from the faith Jesus would return and put an end to all the heresy.

Again to think it is the church is to think highly of man, but more importantly it seems to support a rapture that all of us would rather happen than to go through what Revelation tells us is ahead.

The problem is scripture tells us our "Blessed Hope" is the faith in the Second Coming of Christ not in the Rapture of the Church which most Dispensationalist/Futuristics have made it.

Hi Ed,

Above you stated: "The problem is scripture tells us our "Blessed Hope" is the faith in the Second Coming of Christ not in the Rapture of the Church..."

That statement is contrary to the Statement of Faith of the Assemblies of God.

WE BELIEVE...in The Blessed Hope—When Jesus Raptures His Church Prior to His Return to Earth (the second coming). At this future moment in time all believers who have died will rise from their graves and will meet the Lord in the air, and Christians who are alive will be caught up with them, to be with the Lord forever. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG] http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_ ... _short.cfm

Do you disagree with the Assemblies of God position on the Blessed Hope?

I was discussing what scripture said. What wrote scripture? Who wrote AG doctrine? Why is the questions even being asked? Do you still harbor that root of bitterness over not being an AG ordained preacher?

Hi Ed,

Just wanted the record to be clear.

Since you are a member and ordained with the AG, I think your denomination would appreciate it if you stated yours and their doctrine correctly.

Well let you record be clear Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

[Justaned]

Let us get back on track.
The discussion is He Who Hinders.

WW2 was introduced to saw how God restrained the antichrist like Hitler from winning the war. Hitler made blunders that had to be providence or God and I choose God.

Likewise I believe God is the restraint behind what is Hindering the Antichrist today. I further more believe it has to be a spirit hinderance.
I don't see that there is anyway possible for the church as it is today to be that hinderance.

The 'he" can't be God because God will not "be taken out of the way", as Dr. Dake makes clear. God is ever present, even during the tribulation.

I said God is the restraint behind that which is hindering and that I thought the hinderance was spiritual and something other than church.
Personally I think the Antichrist is something Islamic in nature and I believe it is being restrainted by the Angel assigned to restrain it.

Or it could be something scientific in nature (something meant to deceive, something that will fool even the elect) that is being restrained from either discovery or announcement by a spiritual being. Imagine if science could ever produce something that looked like they created life, or proof that aliens were involved with the event of Exodus. Our society would break down within weeks. Most churches would be empty overnight and turmoil would prevail.

Then imagine someone that claimed to be from God stepped up right before the world self imploded and proved it wrong or that he seemingly was the actual power.

He would be worshipped and given total power, and even the very elect would begin to question their religion. But before everyone departed from the faith Jesus would return and put an end to all the heresy.

Again to think it is the church is to think highly of man, but more importantly it seems to support a rapture that all of us would rather happen than to go through what Revelation tells us is ahead.

The problem is scripture tells us our "Blessed Hope" is the faith in the Second Coming of Christ not in the Rapture of the Church which most Dispensationalist/Futuristics have made it.

So, Ed, can you give me a scripture for one angel holding back the mystery of iniquity? I gave you ten for the Church being the "he" of I Thes. 2:7-8.

It can't be something "scientific" as you let your imagination run wild because Paul said to the Thessalonians, "ye know who restraineth", v.6.

The "blessed hope" that you post-toasties are looking for is the antichrist whom you think will appear before Christ. We pre-tribbers are looking for Christ.

It could be anything because Paul explained what the restrainer was, teaching as a Holy Spirit gave him wisdom and I think God was well aware of today's science even then.

I would like to see those ten proofs and if you are talking about that list you posted awhile back they prove nothing. They are verses pulled from context and listed to imply the church was restraining something. Sorry but that list is bogus to me.

[macca]

Let us get back on track.
The discussion is He Who Hinders.

WW2 was introduced to saw how God restrained the antichrist like Hitler from winning the war. Hitler made blunders that had to be providence or God and I choose God.

Likewise I believe God is the restraint behind what is Hindering the Antichrist today. I further more believe it has to be a spirit hinderance.
I don't see that there is anyway possible for the church as it is today to be that hinderance.

The 'he" can't be God because God will not "be taken out of the way", as Dr. Dake makes clear. God is ever present, even during the tribulation.

I said God is the restraint behind that which is hindering and that I thought the hinderance was spiritual and something other than church.
Personally I think the Antichrist is something Islamic in nature and I believe it is being restrainted by the Angel assigned to restrain it.

Or it could be something scientific in nature (something meant to deceive, something that will fool even the elect) that is being restrained from either discovery or announcement by a spiritual being. Imagine if science could ever produce something that looked like they created life, or proof that aliens were involved with the event of Exodus. Our society would break down within weeks. Most churches would be empty overnight and turmoil would prevail.

Then imagine someone that claimed to be from God stepped up right before the world self imploded and proved it wrong or that he seemingly was the actual power.

He would be worshipped and given total power, and even the very elect would begin to question their religion. But before everyone departed from the faith Jesus would return and put an end to all the heresy.

Again to think it is the church is to think highly of man, but more importantly it seems to support a rapture that all of us would rather happen than to go through what Revelation tells us is ahead.

The problem is scripture tells us our "Blessed Hope" is the faith in the Second Coming of Christ not in the Rapture of the Church which most Dispensationalist/Futuristics have made it.

Hi Ed,

Above you stated: "The problem is scripture tells us our "Blessed Hope" is the faith in the Second Coming of Christ not in the Rapture of the Church..."

That statement is contrary to the Statement of Faith of the Assemblies of God.

WE BELIEVE...in The Blessed Hope—When Jesus Raptures His Church Prior to His Return to Earth (the second coming). At this future moment in time all believers who have died will rise from their graves and will meet the Lord in the air, and Christians who are alive will be caught up with them, to be with the Lord forever. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG] http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_ ... _short.cfm

Do you disagree with the Assemblies of God position on the Blessed Hope?

I was discussing what scripture said. What wrote scripture? Who wrote AG doctrine? Why is the questions even being asked? Do you still harbor that root of bitterness over not being an AG ordained preacher?

Hi Ed,

Just wanted the record to be clear.

Since you are a member and ordained with the AG, I think your denomination would appreciate it if you stated yours and their doctrine correctly.

Well let you record be clear Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Ed, is that verse 13 stating two different things? or is "and" not ment to be there?

macca

[Justaned]

Maybe the AG churches don't fight the good fight of faith or wrestle with principalities, powers and spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies if this is so foreign to you.

Why make a remark like this. You said you had ten proofs it has to be the church and I asked to see them.

[Justaned]

Ed, is that verse 13 stating two different things? or is "and" not ment to be there?

macca

I think it is tying together two adjectives. Like wild and wonderful West Virgina.

Titus 2:13 (ESV)
13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

[macca]

Looks about right

Macca

[Justaned]

In the debate over the Hinderer this passage is pivotal
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NLT)
1 Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.
2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction.
4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.
5 Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you?
6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes.
7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.
8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.
9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.
10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them.
11 So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.
12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.

Verse 1 First we see Paul is not talking of a Rapture but rather of the second coming.
Verse 2-5 Paul is saying Jesus will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed. He said this man will defy everything that people call god. That suggests to me that people that still believe in God is still here, in other words the church is still here.

Verse 6 Paul says you know what is holding him back for he can be revealed only when his time comes. Why does scripture tell us Paul revealed the hinderer to Thessalonians but isn’t telling us here? If it is the church what why not say the church? Is it because God is the restainter and method God uses is not important. That this was never meant to be proof of anything about the church?

Verse 7 Paul is saying the Antichrist is now at work secretly and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of way. Again why isn't the actual restraining force mentioned here instead saying the one who is holding back steps out of the way? If it is the church Paul could say the until the church who is holding it back steps out of the way. Or does it simply mean they all understood God was restraining and how God was actually doing it was insignificant?

Verse 8-12 talks of the aftermath but look at verse 11 God will cause them to be greatly deceived and they will believe these lies. Interesting statement if God is just a spectator and not a sovereign God.

[Justaned]

Ed said, V.2-5 Paul is saying Jesus will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed. He said this man will defy everything that people call god. That suggests to me that people that still believe in God is still here, in other words the church is still here.

Wrong. It doesn't imply the Church is still here. Not even if you have a wild imagination. Read again. Desperate argument.

Desperate argument? Okay you made the statement please tell me why. To have a god you must have some form of religion, so if this man defies everything that people call a god (including false gods and God the creator) there has to be some people present that believe in God (or there would be nothing to defy) You sure can't defy the god of atheist now can you?

[Justaned]

Ed said, V.2-5 Paul is saying Jesus will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed. He said this man will defy everything that people call god. That suggests to me that people that still believe in God is still here, in other words the church is still here.

Wrong. It doesn't imply the Church is still here. Not even if you have a wild imagination. Read again. Desperate argument.

Desperate argument? Okay you made the statement please tell me why. To have a god you must have some form of religion, so if this man defies everything that people call a god (including false gods and God the creator) there has to be some people present that believe in God (or there would be nothing to defy) You sure can't defy the god of atheist now can you?

Ed, No one is doubting there will be people present on earth during the tribulation. These people all have gods whether it is Buddha or their golf game. That doesn't prove the Church is still on Earth.

It also doesn't prove the church isn't still on earth. But when we consider the remark of Jesus saying unless the time was cut short even the very elect would be deceived it seems that is talking of the same thing and the church is in fact here.