Dake Bible Discussion BoardHE WHO HINDERS

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titus213
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

Post by titus213 »

I agree. Most of the folks who reject the idea that the hinderer is the Spirit's presence via the Church of Jesus Christ have a hard time coming up with an alternative. Generally they suggest the hinderer Paul had in mind was law and order, as represented by the Roman government in his day. But since the Man of Sin is himself going to be the head of government, that doesn't really quite fly.

It seems to me the situation will be like it was in Noah's time (haven't I read that somewhere??) when we read that the Holy Spirit was striving with evil mankind, but finally reached a point where He stopped opposing their wickedness, and God's judgment came crashing down upon the world.



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Justaned
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

Post by Justaned »

I tend to agree the hinder is as FatherFisher said is the Holy Spirit's whoses presence is in most churches.

What I disagree with that this means the church has to be taken way.

Dolph said
When your wife tells your son, Johnny, it's a sin to tell a lie, when the Holy Spirit tell you to forgive your boss, when the Christian voters throw a politician out of office for stealing, when you love your neighbor who just kicked you in the shins, you are "hindering, restraining, resisting, fighting" the mystery of iniquity, the devil and his evil spirits. And who are you? You are the Church.
What most people don't want to understand is there are many many children that have never been taught not to lie. In fact they have seen their church going parents model lying all their lives.

Many church going people openly and without fear of correction complain about their lousy boss while talking to other church members while inside the church. In fact I have heard TV preachers teaching on various subjects teach on lousy bosses that should be disobeyed.

I won't even touch the politicians stealing but it took a lot of church going people to vote in Obama and his gang. Hey look it took the church to vote in Clinton a confessed adulterer in his second election. That isn't hindering much of anything.

Is the church hindering? If you watch prime time TV the only hinderance the church is presenting is the time it takes to laugh at the joke that mocked the church.

I believe the only entity that hinders today is the convicting of the Holy Spirit, and we see an increasing number of people that must have their hearts hardened to even consider the vileness they do.



titus213
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

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Is the church hindering? If you watch prime time TV the only hinderance the church is presenting is the time it takes to laugh at the joke that mocked the church.

I tend to agree that the church is failing in the hindering department . . . the salt has nearly lost its savor and the light is barely shining. Though there are some who have thought the church would grow stronger and stronger leading up the rapture, I have always thought the picture given in the New Testament sounded more like the church would have become so compromised and weak while the increase of lawlessness would become so strong, that the church would finally have to be removed because its ability to be an influence had diminished.

So when I see the church failing to restrain the world's plunge into sin, I believe the rapture and removal of the church is that much closer.



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Justaned
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

Post by Justaned »

I never said the Holy Spirit would be taken out. I said he will stop convicting those whose hearts are hardened.

I really don't believe the church is hindering anything at this moment. It abdicated it's power when it was decided each man could decide for himself what was right or wrong by his own interpretation of the scripture.

The only church leadership that has drawn a line in the sand as noted by the media is Rome and you all are sure the Pope is the Antichrist that is being held back by the rest of the church.

The Pope is the only leadership that came out and clearly said Homosexuality is forbidden. That abortion was a sin, that voting for Obama was wrong. Everyone else wanted to protect the 501 c 3 non profit tax exemption. I'm sure many local pastors said this but I would guess their denomination said something a little less clear if you know what I mean.

Dolph your are mightly man of God so what have you restrained/hindered in the last year? I'm not putting this on you but you are like all of us. We may be living for God but we aren't hindering or restraining anything.

I still say for Christians to be effective at anything we must have one voice under one leadership. Christ is to be head of the church. Yet we have 3000+ church/denominations saying the Jesus that is head of their church/denomination but that they all believe a little different from the rest.

If Jesus were really the head then in effect we would have to say Jesus is agreeing that concerning Church doctrine that man can correctly interpret it 3000+ ways and still be right.



titus213
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

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The Holy Spirit is not the hinderer because He won't be taken out of the world during the tribulation when many will be saved.

Yes, I agree. When the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, the salt and light will be withdrawn, along with the Holy Spirit in and with the Church. But He will continue to be on earth as he was here before the Church began, convicting the world of sin and seeking to draw people to Christ even during the tribulation.



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Justaned
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

Post by Justaned »

dolph wrote:True Spirit-filled Christians with their billions of angels are restraining the mystery of iniquity. This is how the West subdued the Vikings, the Huns and the Muslim infidels and became civilized.

Once again I have got to ask are you serious????????????
Your view of history is totally different than what actually took place.

90% of civilization in Europe was done by the pagan Romans and after them the Roman church which you have said elsewhere are in league with Satan.



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Justaned
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:The Holy Spirit is not the hinderer because He won't be taken out of the world during the tribulation when many will be saved.

Yes, I agree. When the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, the salt and light will be withdrawn, along with the Holy Spirit in and with the Church. But He will continue to be on earth as he was here before the Church began, convicting the world of sin and seeking to draw people to Christ even during the tribulation.
Where in scripture do you see it tell us that many will be saved during the tribulation that occurred after the church is caught up to meet the Lord.



titus213
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

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Where in scripture do you see it tell us that many will be saved during the tribulation that occurred after the church is caught up to meet the Lord.

Daniel saw the Little Horn warring against the saints, and prevailing (Dan 7.21). These saints cannot be part of the Church, because Jesus promised the gates of hell could not prevail against the Church.

In Rev. 5.9-11 John saw the souls of those who had been martyred for their stand with Christ when the 5th seal was opened, and was told there were more believers who would be martyred still to come (this assumes the Seals are opened after the rapture of the Church).

In Rev. 7 there are the two pictures of saved people: the numbered group of Jews who have become "servants of our God", and the innumerable Gentiles who "have come out of the great tribulation".

In Rev. 12 there are Jews who are described as those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". They apparently were not part of the 144,000 Jews mentioned in chapter 7, but turned to Christ as the Antichrist begins his final moves against Israel.

In Rev. 15 there is a picture of those who have gotten victory over the Beast and his efforts to make them take his mark.

I believe that Acts 2.16-21 teaches a future outpouring of the Holy Spirit (of which His outpouring on the Day of Pentecost was a preview). Pentecost was only a partial fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, with the full and final fulfillment awaiting "the great and notable Day of the Lord". Peter recognized that the "last days" which the Jews had anticipated as the time of their Messiah had obviously begun since he saw the evidence of the Spirit all around him; but he also knew the "last days" were still to have an ending point. So he does not say "this fulfills Jeremiah's prophecy", but instead says "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel". I think he deals with the issue of the passing of time as the "last days" stretch on and on in his letters later in the New Testament.



titus213
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

Post by titus213 »

So he does not say "this fulfills Jeremiah's prophecy", but instead says "this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel".
Sorry, that should have been he does not say "this fulfills Joel's prophecy", not Jeremiah's.



titus213
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Re: HE WHO HINDERS

Post by titus213 »

Why does "Little Horn" = "gates of hell"? Couldn't they be two different things?

Yes, you're right -- they are two different things (I didn't say they were equal).

But surely the Little Horn / Antichrist is the representative of hell during the Tribulation . . . and the point is that as hell's representative, inspired by the prince of darkness himself, he is seen by Daniel as prevailing. This is contrary to the assurance Jesus gave that hell would not prevail against His church. It would therefore seem that the saints seen by Daniel are believers who are not part of the Church of Jesus Christ. And when we come to the Book of Revelation, we find just such saints described in several places, as I indicated in the previous post.



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