Dake Bible Discussion BoardGod's Sovereignty

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:"Oh so God foreknew but had to stand as bemused spectator and watch? Come on we are talking about God who was able to create all from nothing, to bring life to dust and created the cosmos and all that we can imagine.
Of course God's hand was in Joseph's story or else the story of Joseph is nothing more than good reading. Why do you think the story is in the Bible?"

Did I say God was just a bemused spectator? Or that his hand was not in the story of Joseph? You keep placing words in my mouth which I didn't say - usually a sign of desparation, in my experience. What I object to (from the quotes of writers which YOU opened up this discussion with) is their statements about God being the one who controls all that happens in such a way that his plan can never be thwarted, and that he in fact has pre-determined the decisions and actions of man. These ideas are clearly contrary to the Bible, which is why I object to them so strongly.

So according to your view, did God actually bring about the jealousy of Joseph's brothers which caused them to sin by selling him into slavery? Did he bring about the arrogance of Joseph which led him to sin against his family? Did he cause a woman to tempt Joseph with sexual sin? The story shows how God can take the sinful decisions and actions of man and bring about good from such things. But it surely does not (and indeed cannot) show us a God who has determined those sinful decisions and actions in advance and then has made sure people carried out his "sovereign" plan.

As I mentioned some time back in another discussion, can God be so sovereign that he is sovereign even over his own sovereignty? Of course, the answer is yes. So I am willing to acknowledge that God is even more sovereign than you seem to think he is. But he will not act contrary to his nature -- to who he is -- so he does not have to control all things the way Sproul and the other guy you quoted have said.

"Scripture is not about man it is about God with man playing a bit part. God is sovereign and God transcend time (can see the past, present and future) because God created and controls time. Joseph was a humble servant of the Lord, that God used to save the Nation of Israel and give it a place to grow into a mighty nation. He then lead them from Egypt to land God had given to Abraham."

Gosh, I must have missed the "man playing a bit part" section of the Bible. That's a pretty warped view of how God sees man, I'm afraid. It's too bad that someone forgot to let Jesus know that he was coming to man's world to die for mere bit players in God's grand "sovereign" scheme of things.
I never provided a quote that said
What I object to (from the quotes of writers which YOU opened up this discussion with) is their statements about God being the one who controls all that happens in such a way that his plan can never be thwarted, and that he in fact has pre-determined the decisions and actions of man.
That is the conclusion you reach when you try to reason out God's sovreignty using man's understanding. God has repeatedly told us His ways are not man's ways. We can't full understand God sovreignty because it goes beyond what we are capable of accomplishing ourselves.
So I am willing to acknowledge that God is even more sovereign than you seem to think he is. But he will not act contrary to his nature -- to who he is -- so he does not have to control all things the way Sproul and the other guy you quoted have said.
This statement here proves your inability to understand God sovereignty. We both agree God woould never act contrary to His nature. I believe God is able to be total control and still do that. You don't think that is possible for even God.
Gosh, I must have missed the "man playing a bit part" section of the Bible. That's a pretty warped view of how God sees man, I'm afraid. It's too bad that someone forgot to let Jesus know that he was coming to man's world to die for mere bit players in God's grand "sovereign" scheme of things
Do you object to being a bit player or do you object to being little more than that when compared to God? No play, no book, no movie, no story of any kind would be complete without bit players. A bit player is no less human no less important than the star but as bit players it means the story is not about them but rather about the star God. Scripture is about God about God's interaction with man, about God's overwhelming love for man, about God caring for man. The story is about God not about man.

Talk of disperation? Why are we in battle or a discussion? Are we trying to grow in the knowledge of God's word or are we trying to win our point.

I laid out the story of Joseph, I say to me it clearly shows God's hand in each major event, I say none of it happened by coincidence, nor does it reveal any place where God violated man's free will. You say God can't have that much control okay teach me show me in the story of Joseph where luck, coincidence, carma came in to play so what happened, so the end result was exactly as God had spoken. Or do you not see God's hand in it at all. I say if God's hand can be seen anywhere in the story it must be in all the story for God to be God.



titus213
Do Good to Them that Hate You
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by titus213 »

Your quote from Jerry Bridges which opened the thread was: "If there is a single event in all of the universe that can occur outside of God's sovereign control, then we cannot trust Him. His love may be infinite, but if His power is limited and His purpose can be thwarted, we cannot trust Him."

Your quote from R. C. Sproul which opened this thread was: " 'Don't you realize that if there is one molecule in this universe running around loose outside the scope or the sphere of God's divine control and authority and power, then that single maverick molecule may be the grain of sand that changes the entire course of human history . . ."

So I think that the reality of what you actually quoted contradicts your claim that you never put any such quotes up here. I wonder why you would want to merely begin a thread for the purpose of baiting people? Obviously you have no interest in discussion or disagreement with the quotes you just threw out there . . .

It's always the case that if someone begins with a doctrinal system that requires them to only see certain things to begin with, and everything is filtered through that doctrinal system, they end up seeing just what they thought they would see! So when that happens, there really is not much that can be said, is there?

Your conclusion that if God isn't in control of all the events in the story of Joseph, he cannot be in control of any of them or he isn't God is simply a nonsensical conclusion. It is one of the basic errors of Calvinism that God is less than God unless he has absolute control. Sovereignty never means total control, for God or anyone else.



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by bibleman »

Hi fatherfisher,

Your statement above:
So according to your view,
did God actually bring about the jealousy of Joseph's brothers which caused them to sin by selling him into slavery?
Did he bring about the arrogance of Joseph which led him to sin against his family?
Did he cause a woman to tempt Joseph with sexual sin?
The story shows how God can take the sinful decisions and actions of man and bring about good from such things. But it surely does not (and indeed cannot) show us a God who has determined those sinful decisions and actions in advance and then has made sure people carried out his "sovereign" plan.
That is a great statement and it blows away the idea that Justaned has that... GOD caused all of those sinful actions.

Thanks for the simplicity and the clear honesty of your Biblical logic.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:Your quote from Jerry Bridges which opened the thread was: "If there is a single event in all of the universe that can occur outside of God's sovereign control, then we cannot trust Him. His love may be infinite, but if His power is limited and His purpose can be thwarted, we cannot trust Him."

Your quote from R. C. Sproul which opened this thread was: " 'Don't you realize that if there is one molecule in this universe running around loose outside the scope or the sphere of God's divine control and authority and power, then that single maverick molecule may be the grain of sand that changes the entire course of human history . . ."

So I think that the reality of what you actually quoted contradicts your claim that you never put any such quotes up here. I wonder why you would want to merely begin a thread for the purpose of baiting people? Obviously you have no interest in discussion or disagreement with the quotes you just threw out there . . .

It's always the case that if someone begins with a doctrinal system that requires them to only see certain things to begin with, and everything is filtered through that doctrinal system, they end up seeing just what they thought they would see! So when that happens, there really is not much that can be said, is there?

Your conclusion that if God isn't in control of all the events in the story of Joseph, he cannot be in control of any of them or he isn't God is simply a nonsensical conclusion. It is one of the basic errors of Calvinism that God is less than God unless he has absolute control. Sovereignty never means total control, for God or anyone else.
Once again you try to bring it down to man's understanding. We do know comprehend how God can allow us to make decisions, giving us free will and yet be in total control. So rather than accept that we would rather define God as a being that isn't in control. Some would even suppose God is little more than a spectator and that Satan or man is in control.

Point is what you can't understand you try to redefine and I submit to you that your redefinition of God is not a God at all but rather much like the God of Islam a god of kismet.

Belleive what you like but I believe I have totaly free will, but yet nothing I do or occurs in my life is outside of God's control, if I did I would as the quotes say no longer be able to trust God. Why because I could never be really sure what I was trusting for was within God's capabilities or not.

However my God is limitless in power and I am able to trust in Him in ALL things. Praise God



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

bibleman wrote:Hi fatherfisher,

Your statement above:
So according to your view,
did God actually bring about the jealousy of Joseph's brothers which caused them to sin by selling him into slavery?
Did he bring about the arrogance of Joseph which led him to sin against his family?
Did he cause a woman to tempt Joseph with sexual sin?
The story shows how God can take the sinful decisions and actions of man and bring about good from such things. But it surely does not (and indeed cannot) show us a God who has determined those sinful decisions and actions in advance and then has made sure people carried out his "sovereign" plan.
That is a great statement and it blows away the idea that Justaned has that... GOD caused all of those sinful actions.

Thanks for the simplicity and the clear honesty of your Biblical logic.
No God never brought those things to past but God foreknew of them, allowed them and incorporated them into his final plan. God could also have stopped them but instead God allowed them to continue to give Joseph and us the readers of the story today the proof and the assurance that God does work all things to our good, even though at the time it may not seem so good. No one can read the story of Joseph and see the power and the might of God and not give God the Glory. And scripture tells us that is the purpose of creation to glorify God. Stand in awe and see the mighty hand of God move.



User avatar
branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2428
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by branham1965 »

REVED
wow how do you know all that stuff.my head is ready to explode.i very much appreciate you caring and sharing it with me.ill need to read this a few times to grasp it better.thank ye.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

branham1965 wrote:REVED
wow how do you know all that stuff.my head is ready to explode.i very much appreciate you caring and sharing it with me.ill need to read this a few times to grasp it better.thank ye.
A very good and strong Protestant pastor friend of me that has now converted to Catholic back in 2000 or so sent me a CD on Luther which I watched and was shaken to my knees. Then he sent me another CD on Calvin which shook me even more. I put them both down and began to read about the Reformation. I read things in the Protestant's libraries and I read things in Catholic libraries and when I got tired I dug in until I found material writen by secular historians that did not have any dogs in the fight. Wow what an eye opening.

Reformation basically was Rome fighting to retain control and Monarchies of Europe trying to gain the power they once enjoyed. The people and religions of the people of Europe became pawns. Some countries started their own religion with the King the head such as England, some found famous "Reformers" to rally around such as Germany, some remained loyal to Rome such as Spain and in between was nearly every combination you could come up with.

Wars and battles were fought, new boundary lines were drawn and many cases the most horrible deeds and acts were committed in the name of Christ. People were burned alive, people had their insides cut out, others were blinded with hot stakes and tongues cut out. Everyone pointed a finger at everyone else and hatred grew. Soon Protestant would kill Catholic as soon as look at them and Catholic would kill Protestant. And many others were caught in the cross fire and many had to flee for their lives to the this new world.

It was not pretty. What resulted was the divided body of Christ with each sect, denomination, church trying to prove they are the one true church and doing whatever it takes even down the wishpers of wrong doing to build their church up at the expense of the others.

How many of us have heard the preacher say I'm not here to put anyone down so I won't but they just don't know the blessings of God they are missing out on from not being a ........ In other words you have to be ...... to enjoy all the blessings of God.



victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by victoryword »

Justaned wrote:"Confidence in the sovereignty of God in all that affects us is crucial to our trusting Him. If there is a single event in all of the universe that can occur outside of God's sovereign control, then we cannot trust Him. His love may be infinite, but if His power is limited and His purpose can be thwarted, we cannot trust Him. You may entrust to me your most valuable possessions. I may love you and my aim to honor your trust may be sincere, but if I do not have the power or ability to guard your valuables, you cannot truly entrust them to me." --Jerry Bridges, from "Trusting God: Even when Life Hurts"
With all due respect, Bridges is wrong. The basis for trusting God is the Word of God. The basis for trusting God is not “the sovereignty of God” or “the providence of God,” especially as some men define these attributes. To trust on the basis of “sovereignty” or “providence” has led so many to fatalism rather than a true focused trust in God to perform some specific act on our behalf or to change our negative situation for our betterment.

What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee. In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me (Psalm 56:3, 4)

VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word. So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word (Psalm 119:41, 42).

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
(Eph. 1:13)

Trust is not abstract and simply throwing caution into the air. God has given us a revelation of His will and expects us to know it so that we can have a firm foundation for trusting Him. His Word tells us what He is willing to do on our behalf.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote:"Confidence in the sovereignty of God in all that affects us is crucial to our trusting Him. If there is a single event in all of the universe that can occur outside of God's sovereign control, then we cannot trust Him. His love may be infinite, but if His power is limited and His purpose can be thwarted, we cannot trust Him. You may entrust to me your most valuable possessions. I may love you and my aim to honor your trust may be sincere, but if I do not have the power or ability to guard your valuables, you cannot truly entrust them to me." --Jerry Bridges, from "Trusting God: Even when Life Hurts"
With all due respect, Bridges is wrong. The basis for trusting God is the Word of God. The basis for trusting God is not “the sovereignty of God” or “the providence of God,” especially as some men define these attributes. To trust on the basis of “sovereignty” or “providence” has led so many to fatalism rather than a true focused trust in God to perform some specific act on our behalf or to change our negative situation for our betterment.

What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee. In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me (Psalm 56:3, 4)

VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word. So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word (Psalm 119:41, 42).

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
(Eph. 1:13)

Trust is not abstract and simply throwing caution into the air. God has given us a revelation of His will and expects us to know it so that we can have a firm foundation for trusting Him. His Word tells us what He is willing to do on our behalf.
No one was taking blind faith or blind trust. God clearly stated he would make all things work to our good, if we love him and are called to His purpose.
My contention is we try to qualify this by telling God what is our good, instead of trusting God to so as He said He would.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

Justaned wrote:
victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote:"Confidence in the sovereignty of God in all that affects us is crucial to our trusting Him. If there is a single event in all of the universe that can occur outside of God's sovereign control, then we cannot trust Him. His love may be infinite, but if His power is limited and His purpose can be thwarted, we cannot trust Him. You may entrust to me your most valuable possessions. I may love you and my aim to honor your trust may be sincere, but if I do not have the power or ability to guard your valuables, you cannot truly entrust them to me." --Jerry Bridges, from "Trusting God: Even when Life Hurts"
With all due respect, Bridges is wrong. The basis for trusting God is the Word of God. The basis for trusting God is not “the sovereignty of God” or “the providence of God,” especially as some men define these attributes. To trust on the basis of “sovereignty” or “providence” has led so many to fatalism rather than a true focused trust in God to perform some specific act on our behalf or to change our negative situation for our betterment.

What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee. In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me (Psalm 56:3, 4)

VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word. So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word (Psalm 119:41, 42).

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
(Eph. 1:13)

Trust is not abstract and simply throwing caution into the air. God has given us a revelation of His will and expects us to know it so that we can have a firm foundation for trusting Him. His Word tells us what He is willing to do on our behalf.
No one was talking blind faith or blind trust. God clearly stated he would make all things work to our good, if we love him and are called to His purpose.
My contention is we try to qualify this by telling God what we consider to be our good, instead of trusting God to do as He said He would.



Post Reply