Dake Bible Discussion BoardGod's Sovereignty

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Justaned
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God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

"Confidence in the sovereignty of God in all that affects us is crucial to our trusting Him. If there is a single event in all of the universe that can occur outside of God's sovereign control, then we cannot trust Him. His love may be infinite, but if His power is limited and His purpose can be thwarted, we cannot trust Him. You may entrust to me your most valuable possessions. I may love you and my aim to honor your trust may be sincere, but if I do not have the power or ability to guard your valuables, you cannot truly entrust them to me." --Jerry Bridges, from "Trusting God: Even when Life Hurts"



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Justaned
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Re: God's Sovereignty

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"In my classes in the seminary, I raise questions like, 'Is God in control of every single molecule in the universe?' When I raise that question, I say, 'The answer to that question will not determine whether you are a Christian or a Moslem, a Calvinist or an Arminian, but it will determine whether you are a theist or an atheist.' Sometimes the students can't see the connection. And I say to them, 'Don't you realize that if there is one molecule in this universe running around loose outside the scope or the sphere of God's divine control and authority and power, then that single maverick molecule may be the grain of sand that changes the entire course of human history, that blocks God from keeping the promises He has made to His people?' It may be that one maverick molecule that will prevent Christ from the consummation of His kingdom. For if there is one maverick molecule, it would mean that God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then God is not God. If there is any element of the universe that is outside of His authority, then He no longer is God over all. In other words, sovereignty belongs to deity. Sovereignty is a natural attribute of the Creator. God owns what He makes, and He rules what He owns." --R. C. Sproul



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bibleman
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Re: God's Sovereignty

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XVIII. Sovereignty of God (Rom. 9:1-24)

By “sovereignty” we mean that God is supreme in power and that He has absolute dominion over all creations. Some teach that because God is sovereign that He chooses to lord it over all men as He pleases regardless of any just rights they might have and that He wills to save some and damn others solely because of His own choice, but as we have seen, God is not that kind of being. As far as power is concerned He could destroy free moral agents regardless of their sin or holiness, but He cannot do this and be just and holy Himself. Therefore, since His character is absolutely holy and just and impeachable, He will not use His power except for the highest good of all creation. He does not even desire to misuse His power for He is righteous in all His ways.

God's sovereignty is real but He does not choose to use it to hurt anyone. He gives all free moral agents the freedom to choose between right and wrong in all matters and He holds them responsible for their choice. He is Creator and Lord of all, but He is kind, merciful, just, loving, good, and compassionate towards all, and He does not will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:8; 1 Tim. 2:4-5). The following passages teach the sovereignty of God, but not one of them teaches that He misuses His authority in any realm. He is consecrated to the highest good of all and obligates Himself to bless all men alike that come to Him through Jesus Christ. Note the sovereignty of God is stated in Gen. 14:18-20; 24:3; Exod. 9:29; 15:18; Deut. 4:29; 10:14; 1 Chron. 29:11-12; Ps. 89:11; Dan. 2:20-21; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 4:11; 11:15.
Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 622.
And in God's sovereignty HE said:

Psalm 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


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Re: God's Sovereignty

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R. C. Sproul ??

Well, as always, one needs to consider the source. This is the guy who wrote that non-Calvinists MAY be Christians, but "just barely", and only because they are inconsistent! (in his book "Willing to Believe: The Controversy over Free Will" (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2002), page 140.



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Re: God's Sovereignty

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fatherfisher wrote:R. C. Sproul ??

Well, as always, one needs to consider the source. This is the guy who wrote that non-Calvinists MAY be Christians, but "just barely", and only because they are inconsistent! (in his book "Willing to Believe: The Controversy over Free Will" (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2002), page 140.
How true!

I have a couple of books by Sproul, (have used them to write papers) but over the years have found them to be useless when it comes to real Bible study.


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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Justaned
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Re: God's Sovereignty

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Yet they are undeniable truths to those who's God is in fact God.



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Re: God's Sovereignty

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I, for one, absolutely deny the unscriptural concepts of sovereignty R.C. Sproul works with. For him (and for most other Calvinists) it is nothing more than determinism, where God is the all-determining Being behind everything that takes place; including even the sinful actions of human beings (like the Fall of Adam and Eve, or the Holocaust).

What Sproul and company fail to acknowledge is that sovereignty is not an attribute of God; it is the exercise of royal power. The way that royal power is exercised is determined by the kind of person behind it. If the person is a tyrant (like Saddam Hussein) the sovereignty will prove to be tyrannical. If the person is holy and loving the sovereignty will prove to be holy and loving.

Given who God is revealed to be in the Bible, the idea that he is the controling factor behind every molecule in the universe (including disease) is frankly bizarre. God himself becomes someone unable to be trusted, if that against which he has fought with power, and for which he sacrificed his only Son, was nevertheless somehow under his control all along and part of his "sovereign" plan.



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Re: God's Sovereignty

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Justaned wrote:Yet they are undeniable truths to those who's God is in fact God.
Their God is nothing more than a Puppet Master!

Image


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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Justaned
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Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:Yet they are undeniable truths to those who's God is in fact God.
Their God is nothing more than a Puppet Master!
Actually it is just the opposite the God that is not sovereign has to be a puppet master to make the prophecy he gave to man work. Think about it God give a prophecy if he isn't all knowing then he has to be in control. If God is all knowing and allows things to happen the contradict His plan then God isn't the puppet master.



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Justaned
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Re: God's Sovereignty

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fatherfisher wrote:I, for one, absolutely deny the unscriptural concepts of sovereignty R.C. Sproul works with. For him (and for most other Calvinists) it is nothing more than determinism, where God is the all-determining Being behind everything that takes place; including even the sinful actions of human beings (like the Fall of Adam and Eve, or the Holocaust).

What Sproul and company fail to acknowledge is that sovereignty is not an attribute of God; it is the exercise of royal power. The way that royal power is exercised is determined by the kind of person behind it. If the person is a tyrant (like Saddam Hussein) the sovereignty will prove to be tyrannical. If the person is holy and loving the sovereignty will prove to be holy and loving.

Given who God is revealed to be in the Bible, the idea that he is the controling factor behind every molecule in the universe (including disease) is frankly bizarre. God himself becomes someone unable to be trusted, if that against which he has fought with power, and for which he sacrificed his only Son, was nevertheless somehow under his control all along and part of his "sovereign" plan.
You fail to understand where disease came from. It is from the curse brought on by fall of man.
Actually Sovereignty is often mistakenly assigned to man as royal power. But no man is sovereign over man but by power. Now you will agree God's power is limitless? Or do you limit you God?

God exercises a sovereinty as no man, God allows us to our will because first God knows what we are going to do and God already has things in place to make our decision fulfill God's plan

Look at Joseph, his brothers were going to kill him, instead sold him to slave traders and he ends up in Egypt. Coincidence ? Joseph finds favor with a powerful man coincidence? The man's wife falsely accuses Joseph and Joseph ends up in Jail. Conincidence? Joseph finds favor with the jailer. Coincidence?
The baker and the steward get thrown in jail. Coincidence? Joseph is able to talk to them. Coincidence? They tell Joseph their dreams. Coincidence? Joseph give them the exact interpretation. Coincidence? They forget to tell anyone about Joseph. Coincidence? Pharoah has a dream and just at the right time the steward remembers Joseph. Coincidence. Joseph interprets Pharoah's dream gets it right. Coincidence? Dream comes true and Joseph is in the perfect place and the perfect time to save the Children of Israel from the Famine. Again coincidence? Of course it wasn't coincidence it was man's free will being exercised like his brothers selling him into slavery yet a sovereign God that knew their decision and had put in place His plan. Was it coincidence the Potphar's wife would falsely accuse Joseph? No it was her free will but God had known of it and put his plan in place. Was it coincidence the Joseph found favor with the jailer and was allowed to talk to the steward and baker? No it was Joseph righeousness that impressed the jailer and God knew it would and incorporated it into His plan. Was it coincidence the steward didn't mention Joseph until the exact right time? No it was his free will that God knew of and incorporated into His plan. Was it coincidence Joseph was in Egypt with enough power to allow his family to enter? Some would say it was, some would it was God's luck that it worked as God had predicted many years before. Some would say it just happened.

Me? I see God's hand in Joseph's life every step of the way. No where did God manipulate Joseph, no where did God become his puppet master yet everything worked according the plan God had forseen hundreds of year before and even told Abraham that his people would serve a master for 400 years.

Conclusion God is either very lucky that everything worked as it did for Joseph or God has forseen it and incorporated it into His plan. You tell me. Luck or the Sovereignity of God. I say it could be nothing but the Sovereignty of God.
Praise the Lord



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