Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ head knowledge or hear experience??

[Justaned]

"I'm not here defend Catholics, it is just they don't violate scripture as many protestants believe."

Hoo boy, anyone who actually is familar with Roman Catholicism firsthand will know better.
And anyone who wants to can go to the link you provided or any of the other links on Google to the Catholic Catechism to see whether the context changes the meaning of what they wrote. If anything, reading the quotes I gave in their context makes matters even worse.

"The church will not make up things"??

Ever hear of the perpetual virginity of Mary (she never had any children but Jesus), or the immaculate conception of Mary (she was born sinless), or the assumption of Mary (she was taken to heaven without ever dying)? All of these were made up and announced as dogma by the Pope.

Notice how they use a capital "T" when they talk about Tradition. For them, Tradition is both oral (unwritten) and written (the Bible). And both are equal, as the quotes I provided say. And who is it that holds the oral Tradition? Why, the "living teaching office of the Church", of course! And who might that be . . . 3 guesses.

Do you actually believe the Muslims honor Abraham and adore the God of the Bible as the merciful God? Is that who you seriously think 'Allah' is to the Muslims?? Please.

And do you actually mean to suggest that the Bible verses you quote mentioning Mary teach us that "she continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" and that she (who called God her Savior) is the "Holy Mother"?

Yikes.

This has gone way further than I intended to desired and I'm going to stop right now. However Catholics are not the only ones that as you say make things up. I think nearly every denomination, theology school has taken something that scripture has merely hinted at and ran with it. No I won't go into example as many that I can think of would get me in hot water with Bibleman.

Biggest problem I have with Protestantism is they forgot tradition and in many cases it was tradition the clarified various troubling passages of scripture. You may not want to agree but I believe Tradition would have put a stop to Protestantism having over 3000+ denomination and schools of theology.

And not I don't believe Muslims believe in the God Abraham, even as they insist they do. But I know many so called Christians that don't either, the believe in a God of their own making just as the Muslims do. That said I have always found it easier to share Jesus with another by saying come here my friend rather than saying get your pagan butt destined for hell over here.

We share different perspectives of what the Catechism is saying, I see it as positive leading people to Christ you see it as reinforcement of Catholic lies.

Fact remains if the Catholic church did not exist we probably would not be Christians today, we probably would not have bibles today, many of us would not be able to read today and a few of us would not be alive today (hospitals) and many people that lived for last 2000 years would have died without ever hearing the name of Jesus.

[scottae316]

Yes, they have beliefs that are based on Scripture. However, unlike most Protestants, for the Roman Catholic Church they except as equally authoritative the Pope when speaking from his office, the decisions of Councils and Tradition along with Scripture. Also, all statements, doctrines, and dogmas to be official must have the approval of the Church either through a Pope, Council, or Church Office. They do get involved even if there is no controversy but it is more of an acknowledgement or endorsement. The Pope or a Church Council only becomes involved in defining a doctrine or dogma when there is a disagreement and/or controversy.

Scott I don't think they consider the Pope equally authoritive to scripture but they do believe he has the authoritive interpretation of scripture. Big difference.
For instance they would not accept the Pope coming out and saying your are to to sell you second child. However they will accept the Pope saying scripture says be fruitful and muliply so you should not use birth control.

Ed, Your example of selling the second child is purely a straw man you know better. When the Pope speaks ex cathedra he is believed to be infallible on matters of faith and morals. Here is the definition of it from the Catholic Encyclopedia online;

Ex Cathedra

Literally "from the chair", a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

This to me seems to say that when speaking ex cathedra is authority is on par with Scripture.

[Justaned]

Yes, they have beliefs that are based on Scripture. However, unlike most Protestants, for the Roman Catholic Church they except as equally authoritative the Pope when speaking from his office, the decisions of Councils and Tradition along with Scripture. Also, all statements, doctrines, and dogmas to be official must have the approval of the Church either through a Pope, Council, or Church Office. They do get involved even if there is no controversy but it is more of an acknowledgement or endorsement. The Pope or a Church Council only becomes involved in defining a doctrine or dogma when there is a disagreement and/or controversy.

Scott I don't think they consider the Pope equally authoritive to scripture but they do believe he has the authoritive interpretation of scripture. Big difference.
For instance they would not accept the Pope coming out and saying your are to to sell you second child. However they will accept the Pope saying scripture says be fruitful and muliply so you should not use birth control.

Ed, Your example of selling the second child is purely a straw man you know better. When the Pope speaks ex cathedra he is believed to be infallible on matters of faith and morals. Here is the definition of it from the Catholic Encyclopedia online;

Ex Cathedra

Literally "from the chair", a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

This to me seems to say that when speaking ex cathedra is authority is on par with Scripture.

Scott
When the Pope speaks it is to settle a interpretation that is causuing discord within the church. He speaks after prayer and council and states which way the church will go. Now if they said he is speaking half baked do you think anyone would accept what he says?

Have ever been in a Protestant church where there was a real problem and the arguement seemed to be never ending? Ever have some one person respected as a man of God stand up and say I was praying on this subject and this is what the Lord has said to me. Most people will not question it because to do so would be to question what God said. They may argue whether the guy heard from the Lord or not but I have never met anyone that actually challenged what he said. In most cases the argument is settled as it is in the Catholic church. NOw all Catholics have two choices accept what the Pope is in fact from the Lord or leave the church. I have seen Protestant churches ran the same way you do as the Pastor says or you get out your choice. In those cases every preacher that has ever put his foot down like that has claimed he was guided by the Lord. Or that he was speaking for God.

[scottae316]

Yes, they have beliefs that are based on Scripture. However, unlike most Protestants, for the Roman Catholic Church they except as equally authoritative the Pope when speaking from his office, the decisions of Councils and Tradition along with Scripture. Also, all statements, doctrines, and dogmas to be official must have the approval of the Church either through a Pope, Council, or Church Office. They do get involved even if there is no controversy but it is more of an acknowledgement or endorsement. The Pope or a Church Council only becomes involved in defining a doctrine or dogma when there is a disagreement and/or controversy.

Scott I don't think they consider the Pope equally authoritive to scripture but they do believe he has the authoritive interpretation of scripture. Big difference.
For instance they would not accept the Pope coming out and saying your are to to sell you second child. However they will accept the Pope saying scripture says be fruitful and muliply so you should not use birth control.

Ed, Your example of selling the second child is purely a straw man you know better. When the Pope speaks ex cathedra he is believed to be infallible on matters of faith and morals. Here is the definition of it from the Catholic Encyclopedia online;

Ex Cathedra

Literally "from the chair", a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

This to me seems to say that when speaking ex cathedra is authority is on par with Scripture.

Scott
When the Pope speaks it is to settle a interpretation that is causuing discord within the church. He speaks after prayer and council and states which way the church will go. Now if they said he is speaking half baked do you think anyone would accept what he says?

Have ever been in a Protestant church where there was a real problem and the arguement seemed to be never ending? Ever have some one person respected as a man of God stand up and say I was praying on this subject and this is what the Lord has said to me. Most people will not question it because to do so would be to question what God said. They may argue whether the guy heard from the Lord or not but I have never met anyone that actually challenged what he said. In most cases the argument is settled as it is in the Catholic church. NOw all Catholics have two choices accept what the Pope is in fact from the Lord or leave the church. I have seen Protestant churches ran the same way you do as the Pastor says or you get out your choice. In those cases every preacher that has ever put his foot down like that has claimed he was guided by the Lord. Or that he was speaking for God.

Ed, the Pope also makes affirmations of belief. For example the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary, both were beliefs held by the Church and later declared dogma by a Pope. Yes, the Pope does settle differences of interpretation but also affirms and promotes beliefs.

[Justaned]

Ed, the Pope also makes affirmations of belief. For example the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary, both were beliefs held by the Church and later declared dogma by a Pope. Yes, the Pope does settle differences of interpretation but also affirms and promotes beliefs.

Scott
I agree, but sit back and think about it, is it really any different that what some Pastors do in some independant churches, or what takes place in some denominations?

The point I tring to make is in religion you either convince the people you are speaking for God because if you don't they will discard it. If the Pope didn't declare to be speaking Ex Cathedra how would that settle any theological debate. People would say that is the only the opinion of the Pope and continue on. But by practice of Ex Cathedra the matter is once and for all settled and that is the end to it.

[scottae316]

Ed, the Pope also makes affirmations of belief. For example the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary, both were beliefs held by the Church and later declared dogma by a Pope. Yes, the Pope does settle differences of interpretation but also affirms and promotes beliefs.

Scott
I agree, but sit back and think about it, is it really any different that what some Pastors do in some independant churches, or what takes place in some denominations?

The point I tring to make is in religion you either convince the people you are speaking for God because if you don't they will discard it. If the Pope didn't declare to be speaking Ex Cathedra how would that settle any theological debate. People would say that is the only the opinion of the Pope and continue on. But by practice of Ex Cathedra the matter is once and for all settled and that is the end to it.

Ed,

I understand what you are saying but my point is that in the Roman Catholic Church these three are considered normative; Scripture, Councils, and Popes and are the basis for doctrine and belief. Unlike Wesley, Scripture in the Roman Catholic tradition is not the only authoritative one.

[branham1965]

REVEREND EDWARD * have you possibly considered becoming a Priest???
would it be Orthodox or Catholic???
please know im joking.

Ed, the Pope also makes affirmations of belief. For example the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary, both were beliefs held by the Church and later declared dogma by a Pope. Yes, the Pope does settle differences of interpretation but also affirms and promotes beliefs.

Scott
I agree, but sit back and think about it, is it really any different that what some Pastors do in some independant churches, or what takes place in some denominations?

The point I tring to make is in religion you either convince the people you are speaking for God because if you don't they will discard it. If the Pope didn't declare to be speaking Ex Cathedra how would that settle any theological debate. People would say that is the only the opinion of the Pope and continue on. But by practice of Ex Cathedra the matter is once and for all settled and that is the end to it.

[Justaned]

REVEREND EDWARD * have you possibly considered becoming a Priest???
would it be Orthodox or Catholic???
please know im joking.

Ed, the Pope also makes affirmations of belief. For example the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary, both were beliefs held by the Church and later declared dogma by a Pope. Yes, the Pope does settle differences of interpretation but also affirms and promotes beliefs.

Scott
I agree, but sit back and think about it, is it really any different that what some Pastors do in some independant churches, or what takes place in some denominations?

The point I tring to make is in religion you either convince the people you are speaking for God because if you don't they will discard it. If the Pope didn't declare to be speaking Ex Cathedra how would that settle any theological debate. People would say that is the only the opinion of the Pope and continue on. But by practice of Ex Cathedra the matter is once and for all settled and that is the end to it.

Billy
I don't think there is any danger of that happening, however I do believe the Protestant view of communion is wrong and I think the Catholics have it closer to the mark.
If I could get my arms fully around the eucharist I would be a happy person.
I think this is something the church is going to have to answer to.

My biggest hinderance to Catholicism is some of the teaching on Mary. Again I believe the Protestants are off in their treatment of Mary but I'm not comfortable with the Catholic view either.

I will say every time I enter a Catholic church I am totall immersed in the feeling of reverence and holiness. I was just a Catholic Funeral and it was every emotional to me, not the funeral aspect but the feeling of sancity, reverence, holiness, obedience, commitment.

My neighbor who I would call a nominial Christian goes to Mass every morning at 7 am. He serves the Eurcharist and is totally dedicated to going. The church parking lot on week day mornings are fuller than many Protestant Church parking lots on Sunday morning and I am forced to ask myself why. How do the Catholics get people to worship and serve?

[Ray]

REVEREND EDWARD * have you possibly considered becoming a Priest???
would it be Orthodox or Catholic???
please know im joking.

Ed, the Pope also makes affirmations of belief. For example the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary, both were beliefs held by the Church and later declared dogma by a Pope. Yes, the Pope does settle differences of interpretation but also affirms and promotes beliefs.

Scott
I agree, but sit back and think about it, is it really any different that what some Pastors do in some independant churches, or what takes place in some denominations?

The point I tring to make is in religion you either convince the people you are speaking for God because if you don't they will discard it. If the Pope didn't declare to be speaking Ex Cathedra how would that settle any theological debate. People would say that is the only the opinion of the Pope and continue on. But by practice of Ex Cathedra the matter is once and for all settled and that is the end to it.

Billy
I don't think there is any danger of that happening, however I do believe the Protestant view of communion is wrong and I think the Catholics have it closer to the mark.
If I could get my arms fully around the eucharist I would be a happy person.
I think this is something the church is going to have to answer to.

My biggest hinderance to Catholicism is some of the teaching on Mary. Again I believe the Protestants are off in their treatment of Mary but I'm not comfortable with the Catholic view either.

I will say every time I enter a Catholic church I am totall immersed in the feeling of reverence and holiness. I was just a Catholic Funeral and it was every emotional to me, not the funeral aspect but the feeling of sancity, reverence, holiness, obedience, commitment.

My neighbor who I would call a nominial Christian goes to Mass every morning at 7 am. He serves the Eurcharist and is totally dedicated to going. The church parking lot on week day mornings are fuller than many Protestant Church parking lots on Sunday morning and I am forced to ask myself why. How do the Catholics get people to worship and serve?

Justaned,

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

[scottae316]

REVEREND EDWARD * have you possibly considered becoming a Priest???
would it be Orthodox or Catholic???
please know im joking.

Ed, the Pope also makes affirmations of belief. For example the immaculate conception of Mary and the assumption of Mary, both were beliefs held by the Church and later declared dogma by a Pope. Yes, the Pope does settle differences of interpretation but also affirms and promotes beliefs.

Scott
I agree, but sit back and think about it, is it really any different that what some Pastors do in some independant churches, or what takes place in some denominations?

The point I tring to make is in religion you either convince the people you are speaking for God because if you don't they will discard it. If the Pope didn't declare to be speaking Ex Cathedra how would that settle any theological debate. People would say that is the only the opinion of the Pope and continue on. But by practice of Ex Cathedra the matter is once and for all settled and that is the end to it.

Billy
I don't think there is any danger of that happening, however I do believe the Protestant view of communion is wrong and I think the Catholics have it closer to the mark.
If I could get my arms fully around the eucharist I would be a happy person.
I think this is something the church is going to have to answer to.

My biggest hinderance to Catholicism is some of the teaching on Mary. Again I believe the Protestants are off in their treatment of Mary but I'm not comfortable with the Catholic view either.

I will say every time I enter a Catholic church I am totall immersed in the feeling of reverence and holiness. I was just a Catholic Funeral and it was every emotional to me, not the funeral aspect but the feeling of sancity, reverence, holiness, obedience, commitment.

My neighbor who I would call a nominial Christian goes to Mass every morning at 7 am. He serves the Eurcharist and is totally dedicated to going. The church parking lot on week day mornings are fuller than many Protestant Church parking lots on Sunday morning and I am forced to ask myself why. How do the Catholics get people to worship and serve?

Ed which Protestant view of the Eucharist as there are at least 3-4 that I am aware of.