Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ head knowledge or hear experience??

[bibleman]

SCOTT
how are you Brother???
thanks for posting.it fascinates me that there is so much to learn.

One or the things I learned from studying John Wesley is called the quadrilateral. There is four things that we use in our faith walk; Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Now some argue that this is the order, others say that it depends on what you are saying/doing that determines the order. For me, I put Scripture first then let the other three be determined by what I am trying to say, do, or understand. I find that in most cases if you abide by these you stay on target, then again that is my opinion.

SCOTT
i think thats very safe.when you say tradition and reason can you expound please??if you feel up to it...sighs....im not trying to...Scott im asking sincerely...we love you old friend.kimbo just had his daily dairy queen.and wants more.
when he goes bye bye he gets so excited.he barks and shakes...almost acts Charismatic

Billy, I have been sick all week since the last weekend, I have bronchitis and an upper respiratory infection with everything else. But I am starting to feel better today. I will be happy to briefly expound on these.

Tradition is what the Church has believed through its history. Now this is differs from the Roman Catholic position, as it must be based on Scripture not councils or popes or popular belief. An example would be the belief that the Bible is God's Word. The Church has held this from the beginning, the Old Testament was considered Scripture and early on the writings of the Apostles were considered Scripture. The history and tradition of the Church, remember that Wesley was an Anglican.

Reason is using the brain God gave you, enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Christians and our theologians often try to make things to complicated, when almost any of us have the ability to understand. Reason or as we would say today thinking, God gave us a brain and we should use it.

These are very brief and incomplete definitions but give you an understanding of what I believe they mean and I think Wesley would mostly agree. Thanks for asking, if you need more I will be happy to do so.

Hi Scott,

Sounds like you have really been having a tough time.

Glad you are doing better now.

Bless you my friend.

[titus213]

scottae16 wrote: "One or the things I learned from studying John Wesley is called the quadrilateral. There is four things that we use in our faith walk; Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Now some argue that this is the order, others say that it depends on what you are saying/doing that determines the order. For me, I put Scripture first then let the other three be determined by what I am trying to say, do, or understand."

I think Wesley would wholeheartedly agree. Wesley himself never talked about the quadrilateral . . . it was something noticed by later Methodists as to the way they believe Wesley approached issues.

But certainly Wesley himself didn't view all 4 things as being equal; Scripture always took precedence: "the written word of God is the only and sufficient rule both of Christian faith and practice" (The Chracter of a Methodist"). This sentiment is echoed in other writings of his, too.

[scottae316]

SCOTT
how are you Brother???
thanks for posting.it fascinates me that there is so much to learn.

One or the things I learned from studying John Wesley is called the quadrilateral. There is four things that we use in our faith walk; Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Now some argue that this is the order, others say that it depends on what you are saying/doing that determines the order. For me, I put Scripture first then let the other three be determined by what I am trying to say, do, or understand. I find that in most cases if you abide by these you stay on target, then again that is my opinion.

SCOTT
i think thats very safe.when you say tradition and reason can you expound please??if you feel up to it...sighs....im not trying to...Scott im asking sincerely...we love you old friend.kimbo just had his daily dairy queen.and wants more.
when he goes bye bye he gets so excited.he barks and shakes...almost acts Charismatic

Billy, I have been sick all week since the last weekend, I have bronchitis and an upper respiratory infection with everything else. But I am starting to feel better today. I will be happy to briefly expound on these.

Tradition is what the Church has believed through its history. Now this is differs from the Roman Catholic position, as it must be based on Scripture not councils or popes or popular belief. An example would be the belief that the Bible is God's Word. The Church has held this from the beginning, the Old Testament was considered Scripture and early on the writings of the Apostles were considered Scripture. The history and tradition of the Church, remember that Wesley was an Anglican.

Reason is using the brain God gave you, enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Christians and our theologians often try to make things to complicated, when almost any of us have the ability to understand. Reason or as we would say today thinking, God gave us a brain and we should use it.

These are very brief and incomplete definitions but give you an understanding of what I believe they mean and I think Wesley would mostly agree. Thanks for asking, if you need more I will be happy to do so.

Hi Scott,

Sounds like you have really been having a tough time.

Glad you are doing better now.

Bless you my friend.

Thanks Leon, I am having a patch of it. In the hospital before Thanksgiving with CHF and asthma and within the next few months I will have a heart cath and an implantable cardioverter-defibrillator placed. God is good and will see me through as He always has.

[Justaned]

Billy, I have been sick all week since the last weekend, I have bronchitis and an upper respiratory infection with everything else. But I am starting to feel better today. I will be happy to briefly expound on these.

Scott first of all sorry to hear about your health problems. I will be praying for you and we all expect to hear a great testimony of what God has done.

Tradition is what the Church has believed through its history. Now this is differs from the Roman Catholic position, as it must be based on Scripture not councils or popes or popular belief.

Scott I could not let this slide. I think this is a very very popular misconception about Catholics. That everything they do is conditioned or established by the Pope or councils.

I'm not Catholic nor do I defend the Catholics but having studied them I found Church councils and/or the Pope only get involved when there is a question.
By that I means things like we often discuss here on the forum. Bibleman reads things his way and we all read it the right way. Kidding Bibleman! But I think you know what I mean. When there is a point of scripture that could be understood two different ways the church council if the issue is big enough or the Pope if expediency is needed makes a ruling. That way everyone is rowing in one direction.

If anyone wants to challenge this fine but before you do go to http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2.HTM and note every issue of that Catechism is supportted by at least two and most case more verses of scripture.

Now if you still want to challenge this then list the Catechism point you disagree with and let us look at the supporting scriptures together.

[bibleman]

I'm not Catholic nor do I defend the Catholics but having studied them I found Church councils and/or the Pope only get involved when there is a question.
By that I means things like we often discuss here on the forum. Bibleman reads things his way and we all read it the right way. Kidding Bibleman! But I think you know what I mean. When there is a point of scripture that could be understood two different ways the church council if the issue is big enough or the Pope if expediency is needed makes a ruling. That way everyone is rowing in one direction.

Har! Har! Har!

[scottae316]

Billy, I have been sick all week since the last weekend, I have bronchitis and an upper respiratory infection with everything else. But I am starting to feel better today. I will be happy to briefly expound on these.

Scott first of all sorry to hear about your health problems. I will be praying for you and we all expect to hear a great testimony of what God has done.

Tradition is what the Church has believed through its history. Now this is differs from the Roman Catholic position, as it must be based on Scripture not councils or popes or popular belief.

Scott I could not let this slide. I think this is a very very popular misconception about Catholics. That everything they do is conditioned or established by the Pope or councils.

I'm not Catholic nor do I defend the Catholics but having studied them I found Church councils and/or the Pope only get involved when there is a question.
By that I means things like we often discuss here on the forum. Bibleman reads things his way and we all read it the right way. Kidding Bibleman! But I think you know what I mean. When there is a point of scripture that could be understood two different ways the church council if the issue is big enough or the Pope if expediency is needed makes a ruling. That way everyone is rowing in one direction.

If anyone wants to challenge this fine but before you do go to http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2.HTM and note every issue of that Catechism is supportted by at least two and most case more verses of scripture.

Now if you still want to challenge this then list the Catechism point you disagree with and let us look at the supporting scriptures together.

Ed,

I do not consider this a challenge but an expansion on what I said. My response to Billy was abridged. You are right, the Roman Catholic Church does not do everything by Popes or Councils in that it is these that establish everything. Yes, they have beliefs that are based on Scripture. However, unlike most Protestants, for the Roman Catholic Church they except as equally authoritative the Pope when speaking from his office, the decisions of Councils and Tradition along with Scripture. Also, all statements, doctrines, and dogmas to be official must have the approval of the Church either through a Pope, Council, or Church Office. They do get involved even if there is no controversy but it is more of an acknowledgement or endorsement. The Pope or a Church Council only becomes involved in defining a doctrine or dogma when there is a disagreement and/or controversy.

[titus213]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (with paragraph numbers):

81 [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence

85 The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion.

975 We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ

This is just a small sampling of the beliefs of the Roman Catholic church. I don't think any of us would agree that these are scriptural ideas, but this is the kind of control the RC church seeks to have over what it's people believe. They may not have to learn much of the Bible, but they are expected to learn the Catechism.

[Justaned]

Yes, they have beliefs that are based on Scripture. However, unlike most Protestants, for the Roman Catholic Church they except as equally authoritative the Pope when speaking from his office, the decisions of Councils and Tradition along with Scripture. Also, all statements, doctrines, and dogmas to be official must have the approval of the Church either through a Pope, Council, or Church Office. They do get involved even if there is no controversy but it is more of an acknowledgement or endorsement. The Pope or a Church Council only becomes involved in defining a doctrine or dogma when there is a disagreement and/or controversy.

Scott I don't think they consider the Pope equally authoritive to scripture but they do believe he has the authoritive interpretation of scripture. Big difference.
For instance they would not accept the Pope coming out and saying your are to to sell you second child. However they will accept the Pope saying scripture says be fruitful and muliply so you should not use birth control.

[Justaned]

First these all have to be put in context to the subject they are addressing. If you read the whole section the whole thought then it is obvious these are not saying what they may appear to be saying out of context.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (with paragraph numbers):

81 [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence

85 The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

First these do not say the church will make up things. Is simply says when scripture has two or more interpretations all of which appear to be valid the church will use traditions and what was taught by the apostles to decide which interpretation is correct. If you read the first one that is exactly how the scripture was transmitted and without the Catholic church would not exist today. And again the last point is just as I said if debate arises it falls to the church either the church council or to the Pope to make the call. How is this any different than how the rules, doctrines,beliefs of any church/denomination come about. Someone or a group of people this is they way we believe. Look at this forum, there are many differing interpretations, but Bibleman has said Dake's is right. You can say he talked infallibly for this forum, if you don't like what he said you can leave and be known as a deceived person or you can stay but must accept his answer. Or you posts will be deleted.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

Notice what this says, it doesn't say their are right or that they are saved. It says all religions true or false are included in the plan of salvation, but it does not change the fact that Jesus said you must come to the Father by me alone. their misguided hunt for he truth is the preparation for finding the truth in scripture. Where is the problem.

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion.

975 We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ

This is just a small sampling of the beliefs of the Roman Catholic church. I don't think any of us would agree that these are scriptural ideas, but this is the kind of control the RC church seeks to have over what it's people believe. They may not have to learn much of the Bible, but they are expected to learn the Catechism.

Luke 1:28 (NKJV)
28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"
Luke 1:41-43 (NKJV)
41 ...and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:46-48 (NKJV)
46 And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant; For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.

I'm not here defend Catholics, it is just they don't violate scripture as many protestants believe.

[titus213]

"I'm not here defend Catholics, it is just they don't violate scripture as many protestants believe."

Hoo boy, anyone who actually is familar with Roman Catholicism firsthand will know better.
And anyone who wants to can go to the link you provided or any of the other links on Google to the Catholic Catechism to see whether the context changes the meaning of what they wrote. If anything, reading the quotes I gave in their context makes matters even worse.

"The church will not make up things"??

Ever hear of the perpetual virginity of Mary (she never had any children but Jesus), or the immaculate conception of Mary (she was born sinless), or the assumption of Mary (she was taken to heaven without ever dying)? All of these were made up and announced as dogma by the Pope.

Notice how they use a capital "T" when they talk about Tradition. For them, Tradition is both oral (unwritten) and written (the Bible). And both are equal, as the quotes I provided say. And who is it that holds the oral Tradition? Why, the "living teaching office of the Church", of course! And who might that be . . . 3 guesses.

Do you actually believe the Muslims honor Abraham and adore the God of the Bible as the merciful God? Is that who you seriously think 'Allah' is to the Muslims?? Please.

And do you actually mean to suggest that the Bible verses you quote mentioning Mary teach us that "she continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" and that she (who called God her Savior) is the "Holy Mother"?

Yikes.