Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Angels - Will they Fall Again?

[Jay]

There is something that I have pondered for many years now and would like to know what you guys think.

We know that angels fell and took women and the outcome was the giants in the land. The whole purpose was to cut off the blood line from which Christ would be born. I was taught in seminary and have always believed that it got so bad, that the only people left that did not have their blood infected by that of the giants, were Noah and his family. Therefore, it was an act of mercy for God to flood the earth and destroy all the other living beings so He could preserve the Godly blood line. Dake teaches that there were many tribes of people (Rephaim, Anakim, Emim, Zamzummim, etc.) that had their blood polluted with that of the giants. That is why the Hebrews were told to kill every living being.

We see David taking on Goliath and later, during his reign, Goliath's four brothers. With their deaths, the battle with the giants was finished. Fallen angels HAD to have been here AFTER the flood. Did more angels fall AFTER Noah's flood or were they still here from the original fall? We know that some of them are held in Tartarus until the day of judgment. The Book of Enoch sheds some light on this situation although it is not considered to be canonical.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6-7
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. [7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now, my question.

Rev. 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Every minister, including Dake, that I have ever heard comment on this passage of scripture throws it back to the time of Noah. But, it looks to me that this is a FUTURE event. Why would everything else in Revelation 12 be future tense and this one passage be past tense? Are more angels going to fall in the future, one third of them, in fact? If they do, it will not be to cut off the Godly blood line so what will be their purpose? How will they be manifest? Apparently, before, they could take on physical bodies if they were able to procreate with humans. If they are going to fall again, will they look like normal human beings? It really brings up a lot of questions but I do believe it is a future event.

JayMc

[Ironman]

The Types of Angels, Good and Evil.
While all the angels were originally created holy and without sin, there was a rebellion by Satan, who, being lifted up by his own beauty, sought to exalt himself above God and rebelled. In his rebellion, he took with him one-third of the angels (Rev. 12:4). This rebellion and fall is probably described for us in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:15 embodied in the kings of Babylon and Tyre.10

Prophesying of a future angelic conflict that will occur in the middle of the Tribulation, John wrote, “And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war” (Rev. 12:7). In other words, there are good angels and there are evil angels.

As is clear from Revelation 12:7 and many other passages, the leader of these fallen angels (or demons as they are also called) is Satan (cf. Matt. 12:25-27). Satan, the leader of unholy angels, is a liar, a murderer, and a thief (John 10:10). As God’s great antagonist, He hates God and God’s people. Scripture teaches us that he prowls about like a roaring lion in search of those whom he may devour by his nefarious schemes (1 Peter 5:8). As an angelic being, Satan, along with his demon-like angels who operate under his authority, is supernaturally powerful and brilliant, and he uses all his powers against humanity. Not only is he a liar, a thief, and a distorer, but that which characterizes him above all else is deception. John describes him as the one “who deceives the whole world” (John 12:9). In his cunning, he disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). So, in view of this, the Apostle Paul wrote, “Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness . . .” (2 Cor. 11:15).

The good and loyal angels are the mighty servants of God who constantly serve him always doing His will. The Psalmist described them as, “Bless the LORD, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word! Bless the LORD, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will” (Ps. 103:20-21). It is no wonder, then, that the author of Hebrews, in showing the superiority of Christ to even the mighty angels, asked (the question here demands a positive answer both in the Greek text and contextually), “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14). The answer is “Yes!” Though God can always act independently without the use of agents, He has chosen to use both angelic and human instruments to accomplish His will. In keeping with this, over and over again in the Bible, we find angels acting as God’s servants involved in variegated ministry to people.

Scripture teaches that God's angels punish and carry out all God’s judgments. With their enormous God-given power, they can carry out anything God sends them to do. It is no wonder then that we find them as vital agents in pouring out the awful judgments of the Tribulation as described in Revelation and even in doing battle with Satan and his evil angels to restrict them from any access to heaven, confining them to the realm of this earth and its immediate atmosphere in the middle of the Tribulation (Rev. 12:7). This will be done in anticipation of Satan’s bondage and final defeat as described in Revelation 12 and 20.

In my opinion, I dont think the angels who never rebelled with Lucifer when he had eons to talk possibly millions of God's angels into following him, and during this time our all patient and forgiving God would have left the door open for any possible repentance of any of these angels before they, under the leadership of Lucifer, invaded Heaven, would turn against God now, or in the future, as they, while remaining true to God have seen the result of Lucifer and his followers rebellion, their punishment and their final end in hell prepared for them as declared and written in prophecy, by God Himself.

sO,

"Angels - Will they Fall Again?"

.

I dont believe any more angels will fall, now or in the future. Those angles who remained faithfull to God during Lucifers plan to gain as many angelic followers as he could to dethrone God, and have remained faithfull ever since and will remain true to God forever. That would be like me saying to a group of people, "Stick your arms into this boiling water and follow me, and believe me, it will not harm you, in fact it will make you more powerful." Those who never never believed me and did not stick their arms into the boiling water, after seeing the result of sticking their arms into boiling water surely would not do so at a later time?

Iron.

[macca]

There is something that I have pondered for many years now and would like to know what you guys think.

We know that angels fell and took women and the outcome was the giants in the land. The whole purpose was to cut off the blood line from which Christ would be born. I was taught in seminary and have always believed that it got so bad, that the only people left that did not have their blood infected by that of the giants, were Noah and his family. Therefore, it was an act of mercy for God to flood the earth and destroy all the other living beings so He could preserve the Godly blood line. Dake teaches that there were many tribes of people (Rephaim, Anakim, Emim, Zamzummim, etc.) that had their blood polluted with that of the giants. That is why the Hebrews were told to kill every living being.

We see David taking on Goliath and later, during his reign, Goliath's four brothers. With their deaths, the battle with the giants was finished. Fallen angels HAD to have been here AFTER the flood. Did more angels fall AFTER Noah's flood or were they still here from the original fall? We know that some of them are held in Tartarus until the day of judgment. The Book of Enoch sheds some light on this situation although it is not considered to be canonical.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6-7
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. [7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now, my question.

Rev. 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Every minister, including Dake, that I have ever heard comment on this passage of scripture throws it back to the time of Noah. But, it looks to me that this is a FUTURE event. Why would everything else in Revelation 12 be future tense and this one passage be past tense? Are more angels going to fall in the future, one third of them, in fact? If they do, it will not be to cut off the Godly blood line so what will be their purpose? How will they be manifest? Apparently, before, they could take on physical bodies if they were able to procreate with humans. If they are going to fall again, will they look like normal human beings? It really brings up a lot of questions but I do believe it is a future event.

JayMc

I will throw it back even further to the time that Satan rebelled in the first place,, Isa 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:11-19; and that is when Satan led a third of God's angels up to dethrone God.
Jesus said that He saw Satan fall like lightning to earth, ever since then he has been the Prince of the power of the air. He resides in the atmosphere with his fallen angels and principalities, powers,rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places... Eph.2:2; 6:12; Those that witheld Gabriel from answering Daniel's prayer for 21
days... and Michael had to help him out. Dan 10. 10:12-13;

Not every fallen angel left their first estate to cohabit with the daughters of man.

A third of the angels fell according to Rev 12:4; and in this verse they and satan are cast down to the earth and stuck here amoung men,, they are not permitted back into the air."atmosphere'.
The word stars also means that that is how much of the universe was corrupted by satan's rebellion, 1/3rd of the literal stars that were ruled by angels....Job. 38:7;
are tainted by rebelion and will be renewed like as the earth.,.Rev. 21-22: 2 Pet. 3:13; Isa. 65:17;
macca

[Ray]

Genesis 6:4
King James Version (KJV)

4There were giants in the earth in those days; AND ALSO AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

[Jay]

As long as man and angels have a free will my guess is that they could rebel again. We know there will be another rebellion of man at the end of the Millennium.

By the way, didn't God know about the angelic rebellion before it happened in His omniscience? He also knew the sordid history of the Jews before He chose Abram to start the race. One has to ask then didn't all this rebellion serve God's purposes in developing a family of sons and daughters with righteous character? If so, is God responsible indirectly for all the evil in the world foreknowing that all things would work together for the greater good???

PS- Jay, what seminary did you attend, may I ask, and do you think most seminaries have been infiltrated by agents of the Devil and do more harm than good in many cases??

I went to Rhema Bible Training Center in Oklahoma, established by Kenneth Hagin. Yes, I do agree with you about most of our seminaries that are joined with Universities around the country. I've always heard them referred to as "cemeteries" instead seminaries! LOL. Hagin was once asked why they didn't go ahead and make Rhema a four year, accredited university and he said that they would have to teach math, English, history and all that. He said that they had considered it but wanted to make the school a place where they taught pure, concentrated ministry. I'm glad they did. It was an incredible school with some even more incredible professors!

[Jay]

Hi Ironman,

With all due respect, I agree with much of what you have to say but have to disagree with you on some points. I've included my comments interspersed with yours.

The Types of Angels, Good and Evil.
While all the angels were originally created holy and without sin, there was a rebellion by Satan, who, being lifted up by his own beauty, sought to exalt himself above God and rebelled. In his rebellion, he took with him one-third of the angels (Rev. 12:4). This rebellion and fall is probably described for us in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:15 embodied in the kings of Babylon and Tyre.10

Most people I have heard teach on this subject and you included, use Rev. 12:4 along with Satan's original fall. My question again is, why do you use a future event (Rev. 12) with a past event?

Prophesying of a future angelic conflict that will occur in the middle of the Tribulation, John wrote, “And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war” (Rev. 12:7). In other words, there are good angels and there are evil angels.

As is clear from Revelation 12:7 and many other passages, the leader of these fallen angels (or demons as they are also called) is Satan (cf. Matt. 12:25-27). Satan, the leader of unholy angels, is a liar, a murderer, and a thief (John 10:10). As God’s great antagonist, He hates God and God’s people. Scripture teaches us that he prowls about like a roaring lion in search of those whom he may devour by his nefarious schemes (1 Peter 5:8). As an angelic being, Satan, along with his demon-like angels who operate under his authority, is supernaturally powerful and brilliant, and he uses all his powers against humanity. Not only is he a liar, a thief, and a distorer, but that which characterizes him above all else is deception. John describes him as the one “who deceives the whole world” (John 12:9). In his cunning, he disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). So, in view of this, the Apostle Paul wrote, “Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness . . .” (2 Cor. 11:15).

Although this is an entirely different subject, I believe fallen angels and demons are two distinct and separate entities. Angels, as you have established, were created to serve God and also to be ministers to those of us who will inherit salvation. Demons, on the other hand, are the disembodied spirits of the pre-Adamites that were destroyed by the first flood. Hell did not exist when their bodies were destroyed so they roam the earth looking for a host. They no longer have a body and seek desperately to inhabit a body. If they can't inhabit a human, they will inhabit animals. Angels are different. They have bodies and cannot inhabit other beings like demons can.

The good and loyal angels are the mighty servants of God who constantly serve him always doing His will. The Psalmist described them as, “Bless the LORD, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word! Bless the LORD, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will” (Ps. 103:20-21). It is no wonder, then, that the author of Hebrews, in showing the superiority of Christ to even the mighty angels, asked (the question here demands a positive answer both in the Greek text and contextually), “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?” (Heb. 1:14). The answer is “Yes!” Though God can always act independently without the use of agents, He has chosen to use both angelic and human instruments to accomplish His will. In keeping with this, over and over again in the Bible, we find angels acting as God’s servants involved in variegated ministry to people.

Scripture teaches that God's angels punish and carry out all God’s judgments. With their enormous God-given power, they can carry out anything God sends them to do. It is no wonder then that we find them as vital agents in pouring out the awful judgments of the Tribulation as described in Revelation and even in doing battle with Satan and his evil angels to restrict them from any access to heaven, confining them to the realm of this earth and its immediate atmosphere in the middle of the Tribulation (Rev. 12:7). This will be done in anticipation of Satan’s bondage and final defeat as described in Revelation 12 and 20.

In my opinion, I dont think the angels who never rebelled with Lucifer when he had eons to talk possibly millions of God's angels into following him, and during this time our all patient and forgiving God would have left the door open for any possible repentance of any of these angels before they, under the leadership of Lucifer, invaded Heaven, would turn against God now, or in the future, as they, while remaining true to God have seen the result of Lucifer and his followers rebellion, their punishment and their final end in hell prepared for them as declared and written in prophecy, by God Himself.

I can't imagine ANY angel past, present or future turning from God. When they are in the presence of God and see His glory, surely they would know that their attempts to overthrow God would be futile. This is something I'll never understand.

sO,

"Angels - Will they Fall Again?"

.

I dont believe any more angels will fall, now or in the future. Those angles who remained faithfull to God during Lucifers plan to gain as many angelic followers as he could to dethrone God, and have remained faithfull ever since and will remain true to God forever. That would be like me saying to a group of people, "Stick your arms into this boiling water and follow me, and believe me, it will not harm you, in fact it will make you more powerful." Those who never never believed me and did not stick their arms into the boiling water, after seeing the result of sticking their arms into boiling water surely would not do so at a later time?

Iron.

[Jay]

Thanks Macca, but you too, are using a future event and tying it into a past event. Rev. 12 is in the future and Satan's fall was in the past. We don't know exactly how many angels fell with Lucifer. It could have been less and it could have been more than a third. But, if we read ALL of Rev. 12 as a future event and not parts of it, we have to see that a third of the angels will fall in the future. I'm not trying to be disrespectful here. Just trying to understand why people take part of Rev 12 as past and part of it as future. What it all boils down to is "tradition". Someone taught this years ago and it was taken as gospel truth. Just like Paul's thorn in the flesh. Someone taught that it was an eye problem when the Bible NEVER teaches that. I think we have to be very careful about teaching what we have heard as opposed to what the Word actually says.

Anyway, I love you guys and appreciate all of your feedback here. We are all friends of Dake and brothers in Christ!

JayMc

There is something that I have pondered for many years now and would like to know what you guys think.

We know that angels fell and took women and the outcome was the giants in the land. The whole purpose was to cut off the blood line from which Christ would be born. I was taught in seminary and have always believed that it got so bad, that the only people left that did not have their blood infected by that of the giants, were Noah and his family. Therefore, it was an act of mercy for God to flood the earth and destroy all the other living beings so He could preserve the Godly blood line. Dake teaches that there were many tribes of people (Rephaim, Anakim, Emim, Zamzummim, etc.) that had their blood polluted with that of the giants. That is why the Hebrews were told to kill every living being.

We see David taking on Goliath and later, during his reign, Goliath's four brothers. With their deaths, the battle with the giants was finished. Fallen angels HAD to have been here AFTER the flood. Did more angels fall AFTER Noah's flood or were they still here from the original fall? We know that some of them are held in Tartarus until the day of judgment. The Book of Enoch sheds some light on this situation although it is not considered to be canonical.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6-7
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. [7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now, my question.

Rev. 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Every minister, including Dake, that I have ever heard comment on this passage of scripture throws it back to the time of Noah. But, it looks to me that this is a FUTURE event. Why would everything else in Revelation 12 be future tense and this one passage be past tense? Are more angels going to fall in the future, one third of them, in fact? If they do, it will not be to cut off the Godly blood line so what will be their purpose? How will they be manifest? Apparently, before, they could take on physical bodies if they were able to procreate with humans. If they are going to fall again, will they look like normal human beings? It really brings up a lot of questions but I do believe it is a future event.

JayMc

I will throw it back even further to the time that Satan rebelled in the first place,, Isa 14:12-15; Ezek. 28:11-19; and that is when Satan led a third of God's angels up to dethrone God.
Jesus said that He saw Satan fall like lightning to earth, ever since then he has been the Prince of the power of the air. He resides in the atmosphere with his fallen angels and principalities, powers,rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places... Eph.2:2; 6:12; Those that witheld Gabriel from answering Daniel's prayer for 21
days... and Michael had to help him out. Dan 10. 10:12-13;

Not every fallen angel left their first estate to cohabit with the daughters of man.

A third of the angels fell according to Rev 12:4; and in this verse they and satan are cast down to the earth and stuck here amoung men,, they are not permitted back into the air."atmosphere'.
The word stars also means that that is how much of the universe was corrupted by satan's rebellion, 1/3rd of the literal stars that were ruled by angels....Job. 38:7;
are tainted by rebelion and will be renewed like as the earth.,.Rev. 21-22: 2 Pet. 3:13; Isa. 65:17;
macca

[Jay]

So, Jay, you're saying 1/3 of the angels didn't fall in the past, that this is probably ONLY a future event?

If we take the rest of Rev 12 to be in the future, yes, we have to take that as part of the future too. How can we say one verse in Rev 12 is something that happened in eternity past when the rest of it happens in the future.

Tradition makes the Word of God of no effect. I see it all the time in our churches. We just tend to believe what we have always been told without reading it for ourselves to see what it really says. I could give you more examples but I'll let that dog lie.

JayMc

[Ray]

Jay,
Earlier you said," I think we have to be very careful about teaching what we have heard as opposed to what the Word actually says."

Brother, I can't agree with you more. AMEN to that.

[Ray]

Jay,
Earlier you said," I think we have to be very careful about teaching what we have heard as opposed to what the Word actually says."

Brother, I agree 100%. AMEN to that.